Simple Setup for Trombone Recording

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I'm looking to record myself practicing trombone simply so I can step back and hear myself from a listener's standpoint, nothing professional - no editing or producing, just straight playback. After looking around, I found that the Shure SM-57 is recommended by practically everyone for loud volumes and great quality, and it's just within what I'm willing to pay given how long I'll use it.

My problem is that I have basically no experience recording anything. Again, I'm not really looking for anything that professional. I know the SM-57 is a dynamic mic that doesn't need phantom power... Can I plug the SM-57 straight into a computer or camcorder with an XLR to 3.5 mm cable (or XLR to 1/4" to 3.5 mm) and be able use it that way? Or would I need a preamp or some bridge between the mic and computer? I could just skip it and go for something more computer oriented, but I'm worried about losing quality.
 
Ribbon mics generally do better on brasses. Not always the best choice, but nice in the right circumstance. For non-critical practice stuff. Get a Zoom H2/H4/H4n or similar device. Take the computer out of the equation. Too long to set up, which takes away from your practice time.

Sm57 via XLR to TRS cable via USB interface should work via computer. I have an M-Audio Mobile pre and an Audix i5 that works in that regard. But I also have a Korg MR-1000 and a pair of Avenson STO-2 mics. But it really depends on your application. Are we talking fixed location, never travels, always indoors? Or something that you can take with you in one hand (trombone in the other)? I'm also a trombone player.

If you care about listening how you sound to others, an SM57 might not do it for you. I started via a couple Giant Squid Mini Mono's and a laptop. I was never really satisfied with the computer audio. Very cheap AM Radio-ish, high noise, mono, thin, not much use when being self critical. And 80% NOT the mics fault. At a minimum get an interface, so much more tranparent than onboard audio. And it should allow for speakers louder than your laptops speakers to play duets with yourself. Tons of options, but you are generally looking at more than "just a mic". Mic, Mic stand, boom arm, cable, preamp, interface, computer, and such stuff.
 
My Beyer M69 is supposed to be the same mic that Chicago used on thier horns.

I love the Zoom H2 for all things like that...those things are so versatile.
 
I aways practice in my room at my house, so it would be indoors nd could be a fixed setup. Money is a big factor...I don't want to spend more than $100 if I can help it. I couldn't get a ribbon mic or condenser, and getting a preamp like the Mobile Pre is too expensive. I like the look of the Zoom H2. A little more than I want to spend, but if it stands up to the volume and gives good results I'll go for it.

I could also get one component at a time. In that regard, you said that the SM-57 might not do it - is there a better dynamic mic (in your opinion) for trombone when paired with a preamp?
 
I would think that my i5 is better, but I really haven't used a 57 to know. Dynamics are great for taking a bad room out of the picture for audition tapes and the likes. But for self critical (give yourself a lesson) type playing you want something a little more detailed / hypersensitive to the whole picture. Pick up that slide slamming into 1st. That snort when you breath and other things that might otherwise go unnoticed. If you're trying to work on your tone, and the mic that you're using sounds nothing like what you're playing it can drive you bonkers. There is a difference between how you sound and how a recording of you sounds. And a 57 doesn't close that gap. A good mic mind you, but not really a what you hear is what you get mic. If you're not as hypercritical as I am, a mini mono might do you. Get the battery box though, that battery versus unstable plugin power makes a heck of a difference.

FWIW, the Mobile Pre is common and often runs about $80 on craigslist. I got my Audix i5 for $60 on craigslist. Mini mono's should run you $10 depending on when you buy them. If I ever find my mini mono I should do a side by side shootout. Although I apparently buried it pretty good this time. Shows you how much I use it. I used to have 20+ of them, good stocking stuffers. You never know when you need a mic, and all you have with you is a laptop.
 
Thank you. Lots of options... If you've used a Zoom H2, how do the results compare to an i5 or some mini monos? I think a Zoom H2 would be a good start. I can see how it works, and then expand to a mic + preamp setup in the next few months. And picking up a couple of mini monos seems worth it as well.
 
Yo Quacker! You have gotten some good advice, but the real question hasn't been really addressed. Can you use an XLR to 3.5mm cable and plug a low impedence dynamic mic into your soundcard and get good results? The basic answer is-No. Computer soundcards are not designed to process the low impedence, low output of real microphones. If you do that, you will hear something, but it will be real low volume, with lots of noise, and will suck in general. The second problem is that computer soundcards are not designed for processing critical audio, and usually cost about $5 to produce.
There are 3 common solutions to this problem, and there are some subvariations of each of them. I'll show you some cheap examples of each.

The first is to bypass the computer completely, using a standalone digital recorder. Most, but not all of these can then upload the audio data, usually as a WAV. file, to a real computer for further processing, and/or conversion to MP3/CD or whatever. Example:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=44756&Category=Recorders

The second is to replace the soundcard in the computer with one that *is* designed for processing critical audio, and use an external microphone preamplifer to raise the mic output to line level. Example:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=3598&Category=Audio_Interfaces

and

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=10658&Category=Audio_Processors

This second solution above has largely been outmoded/abandoned and replaced by the third, most common (currently) approach, which is to use an audio interface, which combines one or more mic preamps with an analog to digital covertor. These transfer the data, usually by USB or firewire, directly to the computer, and sometimes come with some kind of audio processing software. Generally, but not always, USB is used to transfer 1 or 2 channels simultaneously, and firewire for larger numbers of signals. Many such interfaces are also powered by the USB, so they can work in the field with a laptop. Example:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=27765&Category=Audio_Interfaces

That one is cheap, but doesn't produce phantom power, so it can only be used with dynamic mics. It doesn't come with software, but you will see that there is free basic audio software available, such as Audacity, or the more versatile Reaper for $50 or so.

This one, which was mentioned above, is more versatile, with 2 mic inputs and phantom power. You may decide down the road that you'd like to try stereo recording or condenser mics, and I believe that 2 mic inputs with phantom power is the most basic entry level setup. Anything less than that involves too many limitations:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=12031&Category=Audio_Interfaces

Here's another inexpensive unit, which, although specialized for guitars, would work for you and has very good sound quality for the price range:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=60669&Category=Audio_Interfaces

A subcategory of this is to use a USB mic or an inline USB convertor. This is either a mic with built in preamp and analog to digital converter (usually a condenser, not a dynamic), such as:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=41780&Category=Microphones

or an inline preamp and A-D converter which converts the output of a standard mic (including dynamics) to a digital output by USB. These may or may not produce phantom power, and usually don't offer headphone outputs. The preamps are small, and generally not the best. In short, they work, and could be an option if money is tight. but lack versatility. Example:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=42882&Category=Audio_Interfaces

OK, all that said, a few words on mics:

For quite a few years, the Shure SM57 has been the cheap go-to dynamic mic in the USA, especially for snare drum and guitar amps, where a cheap mic is often the best choice. Many great engineers use it and swear by it. There are, however, a ton of perfectly good dynamic stage mics that make excellent substitutes. Lots of folks will disagree with me on this, but I believe the SM57, while a perfectly good cheap dynamic, is nothing special. In Europe, the Austrian made AKG and German made Sennheiser mics have been used extensively by everybody from the Beatles to the Grateful Dead (OK-not European, but they know a good mic when they hear one). Often these mics can be found used on ebay or Craigslistat a lower price, because not as many Americans are familiar with them. For brass, I like AKG D320, D690, D770, and Sennheiser e835. For my money, the D320 is the oldest, cheapest, and best of them. Sennheiser MD421 is one of the best brass mics on the planet, but is generally out of your price range, unless you get lucky at a pawn shop or something. Honorable mention goes to the dirt-cheap Behringer XM8500-($20) brand new. Many people will jump on me for recommending *anything* made by Behringer, as they are a company known for producing cheap reverse-engineered copies of other people's gear, and for spotty quality control and questionable reliability. The XM8500 appears to be more a knockoff of an AKG than a Shure, but I have to admit- it is a robustly built, good sounding handheld dynamic mic that would work fine on brass, and save you a bunch of money to put toward your interface, mic stand, cables, etc. Like I said, folks may jump on me for recommending it, but if they do, ask them, "Have you ever used an XM8500?", and I'm betting the answer will be-no. Everybody I know of that has used one agrees it's a pretty good mic:

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=6535&Category=Microphones

You will notice that ribbon mics were mentioned above. These are a special subcategory of dynamic mics that use a thin metal ribbon instead of a diaphragm. They have been used on brass for many years with considerable success. They come mostly in 2 categories- wicked expensive and to die for (AEA, Royer, RCA, etc.) and much more recent and far cheaper Chinese mics (Shinybox, Nady, and a host of other brand names stuck on the same mics). Ribbons are a little fragile, and need to be handled with care. They are not mics I generally recommend to beginners, but may turn out to be very good for recording your trombone. Consider a ribbon down the road.

Hope this helps. Best of luck-Richie
 
Thanks for answering everything. So obviously your everyday computer won't hook up directly to any fancy kind of mic... I kind of like the idea of having a high quality mic going to a dedicated recorder like the Zoom H2 or Tascam DR-07 (through a preamp if I need it), which bypasses having to go through Windows on my laptop except for storage.

I assume the built-in mics on the Zoom and Tascam aren't terrible, but what kind of quality do they give you with brass? Could I go from a dynamic mic directly to a recorder, or do I need a preamp same as a computer? And then, would there be any quality loss with this setup?
 
Using these mics:

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I got this result:



Here's how:

I couldn't find the mini mono, but I found it's cousin the omni stereo variant also from giant squid. I think that the mini mono is the better mic IMO. Through an M-Audio Mobile Pre on dots 5 for both channels. Clipped for content, is about the only edit, outside of conversion to mp3. Recorded at 16bit and 48kHz. That is the first time through in that recording for the giant squid mics.

The second time is my Avenson STO-2 stereo pair of OMNI mics. Into the M-Audio Mobile Pre on dots 3 for both channels. Same old same old.

The third time through is the Audix i5. Into the M-Audio Mobile Pre on dot 17 for channel 1. Same old same old, but I did have to convert the mono track to stereo for consistency.

The fourth time through for grins is the STO-2's. Into my Korg MR-1000 on 8:30am for the gain knobs (very low). Also recorded at 16bit and 48kHz. Which is low quality for this device. It does DSD which is 1GB per 12+ minutes of data. Just copied to local HDD and clipped to size with Audacity, which is what I used to actually make the other clips.

I really haven't played much in the past two-ish years. I've even thought of selling that thing in my closet (trombone) to buy better mics. So forgive my hack-ish playing. I played Tuba for a short bit in 2007, Trumpet in 2008, Tuba for about a month in 2009. And just recently started farting around with an old P/R marching frenchie. But otherwise quite inactive in the performance side of things. No real trombone ventures since I got out of the Army Band in 1997. Hopefully it's of use to show the different aspects of different mics in different contexts on a horn you're actually familiar with. My dust collector is a Yamaha YSL-684G. .525 tenor shanked, closed wrapped F, stuffy rotor, but still kind of nice horn trombone. Bought used back in 2000.

The mics were as pictured, I didn't even move them away from the wall. i5 is king of the mountain, then STO-2's, then the giant squid are the outlayers. Playing from about a yard out from the mics. The i5 would probably do better closer in, but I wanted to keep everything mostly the same. Hope this helps ID what IS relative to what you're looking at.
 
Really, any of those would be fine for what I want. I have a preference for the STO-2's, but I think the best (ie: affordable) solution would be to get a couple mini monos and a preamp.
 
quacker said:
Really, any of those would be fine for what I want. I have a preference for the STO-2's, but I think the best (ie: affordable) solution would be to get a couple mini monos and a preamp.
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You don't need a preamp with the mini mono's. But you will likely want a better soundcard. The plugin power / bias voltage on laptops tend to inject a lot of HISS / noise into the recording. The same with most stock / onboard soundcards. The mini mono's already have a 3.5mm connector. About all you'll need is a headphone extension cable so you can position / aim the mic, and maybe a battery box if your sound device doesn't supply that little bit of voltage. Some of the newer high definition ones don't. And many of the higher end soundcards don't. Most laptops do.
 
Hmm. Could I combine two mini monos into one stereo stream and plug it into a Zoom H2? That would work out, or I could always just use my laptop.
 
Be advised- as far as I understand them, neither the Zoom H2 or either of the Tascam units being discussed are designed to accomodate standard mics. Your options are to use the onboard mics or an outboard stereo mic that is self powered. These are usually electret condensers with a 3.5mm jack. As far as how well they will work on brass, that has a lot to do with the room you are recording in, because you need to back them off a bit, as small diaphragm condensers tend to be pretty sensitive. That's why I like Zoom H4n. This is an upgrade to the older H4, which, although it has all the desired features and is cheaper, is also delicate and unreliable. The H4n is more expensive- about $300 new or $330 new on ebay with all the accessories (remote control-16mb SD card, minitripod stand, etc.), but it has all the features, and is solidly built, and pretty reliable.
OK- so what are these features? First, it has fairly good onboard stereo condensers, so it is a self contained battery powered unit. Second, it has a 3.5mm stereo mic input, so it can use anybody's one point stereo mic. Three, it has 2 1/4"/XLR combijacks, so you can plug virtually *any* mics you have into it, and it provides your choice of 24 volt or 48 volt phantom power. This means you can plug an SM57 into it, or a pair of Neumans, or an AT one point stereo mic-anything. Next, at the flick of a switch, it can become a 4 track recorder, and do overdubs. The combijacks can be configured as instrument inputs, so you can plug a bass guitar or a transducer equipped instrument into it, electric guitar, whatever. In stereo, it can record in up to 24bit/96kHz, and in 4 track, you are limited to 16bit/44.1kHz, same as a CD. In stereo mode, the only fx you get is a (rather effective) limiter, and rudimentary compression. In 4 track, you get more sophisticated compression with all the perameters, reverb, and guitar amp modeling/cab models, guitar effects, etc.

OK, flick another switch. It is now a USB powered recording interface, so you can plug it into a laptop or a desktop without using batteries or plugging it in, and you can record direct into Cubase or pretty much anybody's recording software. It comes supplied with Cubase. It can record in a variety of bit depths and sampling rates, either as WAV. files, or straight to MP3, ranging from really low resolution (good for lectures, or whatever) up to 256kb/sec, which is almost enough to record music without pissing me off. It supports up to 32 gb SD cards, which is more than adequate for anything I want to record.

In short, if you are considering going the microrecorder route, I think Zoom H4n is a *great* unit for the price. I use it for a variety of applications. In the field, I use it with 2 AKG C2000B's for critical recordings- choral and orchestral work especially. When I travel, it's my idea notepad, headphone amp for an electric guitar,tuner, metronome, and an item for grabbing that steel band on the beach. While it is possible to plug an external preamp into a 3.5mm line in jack (I think the Tascams have one, and the H2, as far as I know, doesn't- just a 3.5mm mic in), then you have to plug in the preamp, they don't run on batteries without a power invertor and all that. You have to pay for the preamp, which until you get into pretty big bucks isn't much better than those in the microrecorder, so you already blew the money you could have spent in the first place to get the features you need.. The H4n can make pretty good recordings all by itself, and it can be improved by adding better mics. It has no line in, so you can't really upgrade the preamp. All in all, I think it is perhaps the most practical unit of its type.-Richie
 
Well, I'll start off with the H2 to get started with something. It actually gives some decent results, and I can deal with any problems I run into (it's better than what I have now - nothing). I can't pay for an H4 or H4n, it's too much. I'll get some mini monos and see how those work with my laptop, and then eventually get a preamp and some better mics to go with it, which I can figure out later. Thanks for all the help. I have a much better perspective on recording at home now.
 
Best of luck to you. Just come on back and let us know how it works out. One thing that *is* annoying is when you type a lot of stuff to give somebody a clue, and they never come back and tell you how it worked out.-Richie
 
If you get the H2, you probably wont have much need for a mini mono. The mics on the H2 will be better. But it is nice to have a decent webcam type mic about. Although a lot of webcams come with one these days. So it's more of a gadget novelty item. Like my half a dozen mini tripods that I rarely use.
 
Will do. I'll order the H2 either next week or the week afterward, and give me a week or two to get used to it and I'll be back to you in a month or so. Thanks again.
 
quacker said:
Will do. I'll order the H2 either next week or the week afterward, and give me a week or two to get used to it and I'll be back to you in a month or so. Thanks again.
Click to expand...

Be sure to shop arround...Google will find the lowest online price if you use it.
 
as an old time bone player... let me suggest that if practice is truely what you seek... buy a usb mic... if on the other hand you want to start your trip through the hell of home recording then the previous crap will get you started...
 
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