Should i get a mixer or a preamp?

  • Thread starter Thread starter darkecho
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darkecho

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hey there... i have 2 sm57s and a akg condensor on the way, i would love to produce my own album (folky metal stuff among other genres) and im a little confused, i will probably be recording everyone seperately and most editing/effects through software (i use adobe audition, but i havent seen much anything about it on these forums, is there something for PC that is wayyy better that i should try to get my hands on? i have the ability to buy basically any software due to my work related connections) my main question is should i purchase a really nice preamp with phantom power to amp my mics since i will mostly record one at a time... the only reson i would need a mixer i gues should bee if i want to combine signals, is there a way to do that with less circutry, perhaps a signal combiner that woudl make two mics go into one cable and then have that cable go into the preamp and then into my delta44/PC? I definately want to have a quality preamp if its an important part of making the mics sound good. thanks guys!
 
Hey there Darkecho, I can only tell you from my experience. I use a PreSonus firebox, which works very well for my recording. the only problem I find is that I cannot use ouboard gear with it, such as using a compressor or other effect on the input signal unless I have another pre., this is where a mixer comes in handy. because you can use the aux send/returns for this type of application and then interface with your computer as you normally would.
 
flamin-gitaur said:
Hey there Darkecho, I can only tell you from my experience. I use a PreSonus firebox, which works very well for my recording. the only problem I find is that I cannot use ouboard gear with it, such as using a compressor or other effect on the input signal unless I have another pre., this is where a mixer comes in handy. because you can use the aux send/returns for this type of application and then interface with your computer as you normally would.
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you cant use a compressor on an aux send/return, it wont work properly. compressors should be patched through INSERT


back on topic, do you really need to sum signals before mixing? (i presume you are going to mix on the computer....)
 
If you are going to be recording and mixing (Im guessing)on your computer, a good pre and sound card would do.You can adjust the levels with the output on the pre. As far as combing signals,you can do that in your computer.
To twon, you can use an aux send/return for comps,but a pre fader,post fader switch would be helpful. I dont do it that way myself.I also dont like to use the inserts. I like to use the direct out to the comp(and any other fx for that matter),and return to a channel on the board,if anything, to have more control and the ability to eq that signal (I try not to eq untill after compression). And you have the dry, pre comped signal there if you need it. But, thats just me.
 
what does gain do? I remember seeing that on a mixer i bought a whle back (but returned) it seemed to boost the signal... should i use lots of gain or like.. leave it in the midde.. not really sure what it does and what i need to use it for...


also whats a pre-fader and post-fader?

and isnt compression when you normalize volume of a signal? so if a singer perhaps is all over the board on volume, compression brings it all closer to the same loudness?
 
oh yeah and i wlll be using the computer, and i dont see any point of combining any signals (except to make it easier to apply effects and what not) the only reason i would need a mixer is to allow me to record several mics on one instrument, such as drums mainly. obiously recording seperate tracks with the drummer only doing snare, then only cymbals, then only kick drum would be rediculous... although i probably wont record drums for a while, mostly micing vox/guitar/acoustic/bass. eventually i will record drums but not yet. so i dont think i need to be able to combine 4+ mics, however, i would like to experiment with having several mics on one instrument, such as 2 dynamics on a guitar amp or 2 condensors on acoustic to get some more flavor...

is ther an easy/cheap way to combine two (maybe 3) mics into one cable and have them all g through a high quality preamp? maybe just a y-splitter adapter or something? or is that totally rediculous?

something like this maybe?
http://www.till.com/articles/PreampCable/images/splittercable.jpeg
 
darkecho said:
what does gain do? I remember seeing that on a mixer i bought a whle back (but returned) it seemed to boost the signal... should i use lots of gain or like.. leave it in the midde.. not really sure what it does and what i need to use it for...
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The gain knob on the board adjusts the amout of ... "volume", so to speak,going into the board, on the mics/inputs you plug into it.


also whats a pre-fader and post-fader?
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A pre fader switch(mostly found on bigger consols) lets your AUX sends act independant of the faders. In pre fader mode,you could pull the faders down to 0Db but still have the "loud" signal sent out through the sends. I wouldnt worry about that right now.

and isnt compression when you normalize volume of a signal? so if a singer perhaps is all over the board on volume, compression brings it all closer to the same loudness?
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Thats the basic idea. If I were you, I would stick to a plug in compressor for the computer. Theres a lot of Direct x and VST ones to choose from.
is ther an easy/cheap way to combine two (maybe 3) mics into one cable and have them all g through a high quality preamp? maybe just a y-splitter adapter or something?
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NO,that is NOT the way to do it. Each mic should have its own pre.
 
hmm ok so if i wanted to record multiple mic sources at once, say two nice condensors on an acoustic guitar, then i would either need (2) preamps or a mixer...

ive heard not to depend on mixers preamps, so is there a way to bypass them and just use a mixer for the routing? are there mixers minus the preamps? what happens if i go mic-preamp-mixer-PC? will i just get double the preamp? and will the mixer preamp (if its lower quality) make the signal sound worse

what if i put the preamp after the mixer? would that just be the same issue as before with slighty different issues? i guess i either need a mixer with really nice preamps on it, or several preamps... maybe 2-3...
 
simple rule

Don't forget: more connections in the signal chain = more noise and more potential for bad connections.

You can spend all sorts of money on pre-amps...tube pre's will add color "warmth", and noise too.

Here's what I use. Simple, 4 solid-state pre's. Clean & quiet. $79.

http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--STOPR4

This would work good with your delta 44 (maximum of 4 tracks of simultaneous recording, right?)

Then again, if you need more than 4 mics/inputs recording simultaneously, you could go with a mixer, but the mixing would have to be done live, no fixing it later. So if you use the mixer to mix 4 mics on drums to one track, you'll be stuck with it, no ability later to add reverb to the snare or take the mids off the kick drum.

Therefore, you might consider a bigger interface, like a firepod. 8 tracks of simultaneous recording, and it has pre-amps built in. That way, you can have a separate track for that snare, so you can add effects just to that on the software you are using.

http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--PRSFIREPOD
 
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hmmm well what exactly makes one preamp better than another? cause I am seeing all sorts of stuff about needing warmth and how tubes are so much better but now you say that tubes add noise and that solid state is best..

i really like the idea of that one unit that would supply 4 preamped mic signals to my Delta44. that would be perfect, but i want to make sure im getting a good quality signal... maybe i just dont understand what preamps do..
 
darkecho said:
maybe i just dont understand what preamps do..
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The pre-amp I suggested does the following:

1. Provides phantom power for 4 mics.
2. Boosts the signal strength to line level.
3. Outputs to unbalanced 1/4" to match the inputs on my recorder.

And it does it clean.

darkecho said:
hmmm well what exactly makes one preamp better than another? cause I am seeing all sorts of stuff about needing warmth and how tubes are so much better but now you say that tubes add noise and that solid state is best..

i really like the idea of that one unit that would supply 4 preamped mic signals to my Delta44. that would be perfect, but i want to make sure im getting a good quality signal...
Click to expand...

Regarding tube amps, I'm no expert, but here's what I understand: Yes, they add warmth and noise, but it's a type of noise that a lot of people want. Especially guys recording direct to digital.

I don't need that because I'm recording to analog. It has natural warmth.

As I understand it, an inexpensive solid state amp can sound very clean because the technology involved is relatively simple and inexpensive to produce. However, an inexpensive tube amp won't be good.. you have to spend more money to get one that sounds good.

Four channels of decent sounding tube pre-amps is gonna cost some bucks. But if you got the money, go for it! Also, maybe you don't need four. How many mics do you want to record simultaneously?

Someone else should comment about why expensive mic pre-amps, especially tube amps, are better for recording direct to digital.



;)
 
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hmm yeah well im not using analog (am i?) just my delta 44 and PC... so does metal usually want this "warmth" that tubes offer? or am i better off using a solid state amp? there is the presonus eureka at my local guitar center for 350 bucks... should i get one of those? or should i get the cheap $79 4 I/O solid state amplifier that was suggested above? I plan on making something of good quality in the end so i dont want to just get any preamp that will power my mics... i want something that i can be happy with down the road otherwise i will end up spending more money when i decide that the cheap one sucks... but at the same time, im not sure if maybe a cheap solid state will be fine forever... i think all i want is something that will amp my mics clean (no extra noise hiss fuzz distortion) so that i have a good raw signal to play with electronically. but then again i dont know the audio difference between tube and solid... is there an mp3 around here that compares the two? thanks so muche veryone!
 
a good preamp is the most important thing to have if your going to pc. a good pre will will help eliminate some of the brittle sounds that plague pc recording. you can get about a zillion differant pres that could do the job be it in a rack or through a mixer. i tell alot of people that if they dont have enough cash to get some decent pres to just opt for a cheapish console. the pres will be about the same quality (which is unfortunatly bad) but will give a person who is getting into recording somthing very valuable in learning, the ability to begin to learn signal path, wiring, and routing. these are all things that every beginning engineer should try and learn as it will aid in every facet of recording wether analog or pc.

that said if youve got under say 500$ and want 4 or more decent pres id suggest trying to find an old ramsa board. i used one for a long time with pretty good results for heavy music. the pres start sounding bad when the tracks pile up but way better than a set of mackies, beringers or some other low cost gear. these boards also have decent eqs, auxs and busses.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ramsa-WR-S4412S...397323263QQcategoryZ23785QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

400$ same one i learned on but smaller.

if your convinced you wanna bypass the whole mixer option and go straight pre amps id say save some cash and get ones that once you stack up an entire record through them you dont get mush.

syteks are pretty damn nice 4 chan pres for the price
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sytek-MPX-4Aii-...yZ119018QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or a focusrite octepre is nice for the cash as well. might suit your needs perfectly as its 8 in

http://cgi.ebay.com/Focusrite-OctoP...ryZ23790QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 
darkecho said:
obiously recording seperate tracks with the drummer only doing snare, then only cymbals, then only kick drum would be rediculous... although i probably wont record drums for a while, mostly micing vox/guitar/acoustic/bass. eventually i will record drums but not yet. so i dont think i need to be able to combine 4+ mics,
Click to expand...

Your are actually better off Recording the Drums First or the Drums and Bass First because it is very Difficult for a Drummer to Play allong with Pre recorded Guitar/Bass because the Chances that the Timeing is Perfectly Consistant all the way through the Song is very Unlikely which will Throw off the Drummer and make it Very Difficult for him/her to Follow......

Most Studios will have the Drums and Bass Recorded First and then the Guitar and Lead Tracks and Lastly Vocals.....

You can try Playing allong with a Metronome to get Consistant timeing which might help with the Timeing but It might be easier the other way....


this is the way it works best for me anyways....

Cheers
 
hmm well my dillema is pretty clear now...


first of all i have to decide whether i want to have all of my cash dedicated to the quality of the preamp... if i do, then that means no mixer. then i have to chose between 2-4 channels. dont need more than 4 for my current card, and less than 2 means cant double mic anything..

if i go mixer, then it will need to have 4 busses but i dont have much other criteria...

what woudl you guys do? i dont think i want to spend any more than 500 on either of these things... not sure if i want Tube pre's or solid only, im doint metal stuff and acoustic but i think that if i could get a really nice solid state with 4 channels with better quality than the same price for a tube then i woudl go solid state......hmmmmmm jeez this is a tough decision


how much do preamps in mixers suck compared to outboard mixers? any kind of ratio or example someone can give me, im notr eally sure if i even need outboard...thanks!
 
If you are on a budget, and you are recording to PC, I would say skip the mixer. Spend the money on better preamps or a better interface.

most people are probably gonna tell you to skip the tube pres unless you have ALOT of cash to spend. The cheapest tube pre that has a decent reputation is "The Brick" made by Groove Tubes. Electro Harmonix makes a tube pre that looks cool too and its a little bit cheaper....

Read up on some stuff. Read ALOT. you sound like you are pretty new to this.
 
what kind of interface could be better? i would still need a preamp no? i am tempted to get the gtbrick since ive heard some good stuff about it and it looks very simple and easy to use. only problem is that it is a single channel and I wouldnt be able to double mic a cab or anything which sort of sucks since i bought 2 sm57s for that purpose... any suggestions? The DMP3 has 2 channels which would suffice but i have heard that its a very clean solid state and that it might not sound too good for the metal music i will be recording... whaddayathink???
 
i just got a Delta Octane, do you think hte preamps in it are better than say those in a Behringer MX3282? I aske because i bought the octne for 580 and have been offerd the MX3282 for less... considering returning the octane if the behringers preamps are better. i have no idea how to tell.
 
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