Several HD24 Questions

  • Thread starter Thread starter stevieb
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stevieb

Just another guy, really.
About to purchase a used one, have several questions.

First, please, guys, let's keep this focused on help and facts, rather than flaming and gut opinions. Some opinions are okay, maybe even good, but if your intent is to rag on me for not knowing jack, or because you hate Alesis and/or HD24 and ADAT, etc., please, keep it to yourself, okay? I admit, right off the bat, I am NOT the world's formost expert on ANYTHING having to do with or related to HD24's- not recording, computers, hard drives, Alesis, ADAT, nothing.

That out of the way (I hope for good) here we go:

Some assumptions I am making- correct me if I am wrong or off track:
One can use two or more HD24's together, at the same time.
HD24's are completly compatable with the BRC.
HD24's are completly compatable with tape-based ADATS.


Is there a way to backup the data on a HD24 to a DVD disc, directly, without going thru a computer? To a CD disc? (that would be our archival copy.)

What are the alternatives to the firewire interface (it's kinda pricy, budget is maxed out at the time)? It seems there are, but some are slow- is it possible to start the transfer process at the end of the day, letting it run overnight, and coming to a completed transfer (to a computer's HD) in the morning?

Is is possible to purchase and install, on a PC, a docking port that would allow us to remove a HD from the HD24, and plug it right into the PC? Failint that, is it possible to remove the HD from the HD24 cradle and install it into a PC, with the PC then (with little or no additional work) able to access it?

I understand the Fostex HD2424 is inferior to the Alesis, but I would think they sell for less- would one work as a backup, or second unit to a Alesis HD24? Do they sell for substantially less? (Just did a ebay search, NO HD2424's posted right now.) If we went with all HD2424's, what problems should we be prepared for?

This is probably a noob question, so hold on to your hats: I assume we could run from the outputs of the HD24, to a board with at least 24 inputs and 8 busses, to, say, a Digi001, and thus mix down from 24 channels to 8 (or 7, or...1), doing some remastering on the fly if desired. Pick this apart- why would we want to/not want to do this?

I understand one can run a lightpipe cable from a ADAT to a digi001, and thus record in 16 channels. I am also told one can run some number of ADATS, via lightpipe cables, to an optical router and then into a PC, and do the same basic thing (assuming the computer has all the "guts" to support it, natch) HD24's have lightpipe, too, right? Could one not do the same with a HD24?

I recently saw an Alesis meter bridge, attached to a BRC. Kinda cool, but it had serial plugs on the back, marked "Channels 1-8," "Channels 9-16," "Channels 17-24" below them. If I had such a meter bridge, I am betting it would not work completly (for all 24 channels) with a HD24, as the HD24 has only one serial output. Am I wrong? How to get it to read all 24 channels? We have a meter bridge on our analog main board, that has more than 24 meters- would the Alesis bridge be redundant, or is there any benefit to having it, too?

The afore mentioned bridge is being sold with the BRC. We already have a BRC. Any benefit to having two, besides having a backup? Could they both be connected to the HD24, with, say one in the control room and the other in the studio room, so if the engineer could control the basic functions of the HD24 from either location, he would not have to leave that room? (I once connected two keyboards to one computer, one via the older keyboard plug, the other via USB- the computer saw and responded to them both, and had no issues with that setup- I could type on one or the other, AND someone else could type on one while I typed on the other, no problems. I am thinking of that sort of setup. 'Course, the studio room BRC would have to be HANDS OFF to the band...) I don't recall how everything is connected to the BRC, so there may be connectivity issues making this unworkable? If so, could the same thing be done with one BRC and one LRC? Will the LRC work with a HD24?


Whew. I realize some of these questions might be better answered by the support folks at Alesis, and I will ask there, too. But wanted to get the benefit of the knowledge here, too.

Thanks in advance. General advise, on-topic, is appreciated, too.
 
Is there a way to backup the data on a HD24 to a DVD disc, directly, without going thru a computer? To a CD disc? (that would be our archival copy.)

No, there is not.

What are the alternatives to the firewire interface (it's kinda pricy, budget is maxed out at the time)? It seems there are, but some are slow- is it possible to start the transfer process at the end of the day, letting it run overnight, and coming to a completed transfer (to a computer's HD) in the morning?

The firewire is fastest way of transferring tracks from the HD24. All other (Alesis approved) methods are frustratingly slow. Spend the money on the Firewire, it's completely worth it.

Is is possible to purchase and install, on a PC, a docking port that would allow us to remove a HD from the HD24, and plug it right into the PC? Failint that, is it possible to remove the HD from the HD24 cradle and install it into a PC, with the PC then (with little or no additional work) able to access it?

The Alesis used a proprietary file format system. Which is incompatable with both FAT32 and NTFS. You might get an OS to recognize the drive, but not the data on the drive.
 
hd24's are great I have 2. do not try ethernet cable for file transfers(crossover cable to be exact) it is the slowest format ever invented. The fireport is great as M mentioned however I typically go through my motu2408mk3 viz lightpipe in real time.Yes compatable with adats,yes can join more than 1 together and I believe they now work with the brc.
 
I think at one time the BRC would lock up with the HD24, but that was years ago when I read that. I have a BRC, but my HD24 is close enough that I don't use it.
 
The meter bridge for the BRC only works with the older Black Faced ADAT machines. The later ADATs did not have the meter bridge output, nor do the HD24s.

Once you sync up one machine as the master to one or more slaves, the master machince can control the transport of all machines.

As mentioned above, the Fireport option is the best way to transfer files from the HD24 to the PC. I started without the FirePort Option using the ehternet connection and it is slow, real slow. It reminded me of my Commodore 64 days. :eek:
 
As mentioned above, the Fireport option is the best way to transfer files from the HD24 to the PC. I started without the FirePort Option using the ehternet connection and it is slow, real slow. It reminded me of my Commodore 64 days. :eek:

Okay, but is it "fast" and reliable enough to be allowed all night to do the transfer?
 
As mentioned above, the Fireport option is the best way to transfer files from the HD24 to the PC. I started without the FirePort Option using the ehternet connection and it is slow, real slow. It reminded me of my Commodore 64 days. :eek:

Slower than real time?
 
Slower than real time?
That could depend on what your sample rate and the length of song. You basically have to set the HD24 up as an FTP server which I found it difficult to establish the connection at times. If you are doing it overnight, I suppose the time factor would not be an issue.
 
That could depend on what your sample rate and the length of song. You basically have to set the HD24 up as an FTP server which I found it difficult to establish the connection at times. If you are doing it overnight, I suppose the time factor would not be an issue.

That didn't quite answer the question. If I want to boot a 5 minute track of 44.1 recorded material over via FTP, assuming the connection is no problem, will it take longer than 5 minutes? If it does, the function is pretty useless.
 
That didn't quite answer the question. If I want to boot a 5 minute track of 44.1 recorded material over via FTP, assuming the connection is no problem, will it take longer than 5 minutes? If it does, the function is pretty useless.

If you used all 24 tracks, it is a good possibility it would take longer than 5 minutes. It has been a good number of years since I used that functionality and I would not be surprised if I was still on Win 98 at the time.
 
the ethernet transfer does not like Internet Explorer I can tell you that!
 
I believe I use ftp surfer the last time I used ethernet.Do a search for it "ftp surfer" its free!
 
That didn't quite answer the question. If I want to boot a 5 minute track of 44.1 recorded material over via FTP, assuming the connection is no problem, will it take longer than 5 minutes? If it does, the function is pretty useless.
The ethernet transfer works very well, but very slowly. If you are transferring two tracks, it will be faster than real time. If you are transferring 24 tracks, it will be far slower. I'm not sure where the break-even point would be, but it's probably somewhere in the range of 4-8 tracks.

The Fireport HW/SW combo or equivalent third party tools are the best way to get tracks from an HD24 into your DAW.

And the best place to discuss the HD24 with a wide community of interest is in the Yahoo HD24 group: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hd24
 
I use my HD24 mostly to direct record all the mic and DI channels I've setup for church cantatas using choir, orchestra, electric instrument, and drums. I level all the channels to ensure a decent HD24 level (generally only putting the choir and maybe strings into to house for augmentation).

After the service, I have 24 tracks lasting an hour or so each that I need pulled over into a workstation for editing. I've managed to live with overnight file transfers into a PC over my home network since the time spend editing generally so much more than the time spent transfering files - especially when done overnight.

I have a modern home network (D-Link DIR-655 Internet router with DNS, secure WiFi, 1G/100M/10M wired) with a modern Windows PC and found little problems hooking the HD24 into the network. Just assign it an address in the same subnet but outside what DNS assigns and everything should be cool. For example, if your DNS assignes 192.168.0.100 to 192.168.0.199 then set HD24 to 192.168.0.99.

SOme comments about the HD24 and FTP:
1. Make sure the firmware is current (1.20 at this time)
2. I use the default anonymous login with no password since there is no security risk when inside my local LAN.
3. NEVER try to FTP more than one file at a time because Alyesis has cripled their FTP implementation. You can freeze the unit through contant requests that it cannot do.
4. Unfortunately, the HD24 will still occasionally freeze in FTP server mode. If it shows "FTP Transmitting (XX%)" and you have not seen the percentage change in awhile then you are froze. Hard cycle using the rear power switch and put it back into FTP server mode. I hate doing this but it is the only recovery method I know.

I use open source FTP clients to manage file transfers. The best I've used to date is FileZilla (filezilla-project.org) which works on all Windows and OS X as well. Use it's "Site Manager" function to define your HD24 network address and MAKE SURE you limit the number of simultaineous connections to 1 under the Transfer Settings tab. If you don't restrict to 1 connection at a time, I assure you that you will freeze up the HD24 after some period of time.

It does take a long time to transfer usign the netowrk interface and I believe this problem is twofold. 1. Alyesis only implemented 10BaseT which is bad enough.
2. I believe Alyesis intentionaly crippled this interface making it perform way under spec.

Here is the basis for by opinion

FileZilla monitors data transfer rates to estimate the file transfer duration. I cannot get better than 470 KBytes/s from the HD24 which is WAY less than I'd expect using 10baseT. 470 KBytes/s equates to 3,850,240 bit/s and this is quite a bit less than the 10,000,000 bit/s theoretical limit of 10Base. Since my workstation running FileZilla interfaces to the router at 1Gbps, network overhead is negligable and even FTP protocol overhead cannot explain that piddly performance from the HD24.

So I've learned to live with it. The following formula will give you a decent file transfer time estimate from the HD24 to your PC over a network.

Duration (in hours) = FileSize in Bytes * Channels / (470*1024*60*60)
Duration (in minutes) = FileSize in Bytes * Channels / (470*1024*60)


Thus my 636,058,140 byte file took approximately 23 minutes to transfer while 24 of them took almost 9 hours
 
The method I've chosen is real time via lightpipe as I only need to move files from the Alesis into Audition and back. At this point, nothing would convince me to use FTP at any time.
 
I'm trying to transfer files from a fostex D2424LV using the ethernet connection (I have no other options, I have no adat port). For some reason the FTP fails to connect. I suspect that I do something wrong with the IP addresses (this area of sound engineering is not my cup of tea...).

Could someone please help me with a description of how I can set up the FTP connection? In the fostex unit I can set IP-address, sub net (what is that?), username and password. I can also set "ethernet" and "anonymous" modes on and off.

/Alvfors
 
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