seeking "perfect" intonation

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pchorman

pchorman

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Folks, I'd like know how far some of you go when adjusting your guitar's intonation. In particular, please tell me whether you simply compare open and 12th fretted notes as some sources suggest, or do you try to satisfy all fret positions. I say this because I doubt any fretboard is "perfect"; some tradeoff must be necessary - some notes may be slightly flat, others slightly sharp. The 12th fret may be about midway up the neck, but it doesn't "speak" for the whole fretboard, if you know my complaint.

(I have a Gibson LP and am somewhat disappointed that every last note isn't dead balls on according to a Boss guartz tuner.)
 
Well, you are right that some compromise is needed with a standard guitar. The whole design of guitars is built on this compromise. Think about a grand piano. Each string as an individual string lenghth to also for the right length for the corresponding pitch. There seems to be 2 main resloutions currently on the market for this problem. One is the Novax system of "fanned frets". www.novaxguitars.com/ They build jazz musician Charlie Hunter's 8 string guitars (3 bass strings, 5 guitar strings). This allows for much more even intonation and on the site is a bunch of academic research on the subject. The other solution I have read about is the "buzz feitin" tuning system. It is used on Anderson and some Washburn guitars. The rational behind this is less written about but involves adjusting the nut and saddles placement. These can be retrofitted on most guitars. http://www.buzzfeiten.com/
 
Well, I'm no expert on this, but...
I guess what matters is whether it bothers your ears or not. If it sounds good, then it's ok. Who said every note should be exactly so many hertz? People with perfect pitch can't tune pianos for a reason.

Your tuner may be right about upper frets not being exactly in tune. Actually the pitch of a fretted note also depends on how hard you're pressing down and whether your finger is in the middle or not. If it sounds good, don't let it get to ya! :)
 
I did all the guitar teching when my band did it's record and a we used about 12 different guitars. We had LP's, LP Jr's, Strats, Tele's, a Firebird, etc. A lot of times a guitar would be perfectly intonated for low on the neck parts but if we doubled the part with higher chords the intonation would be a little out. For those parts I would re-set the intonation for the higher frets. I know that dosn't help for live playing unless the majority of your playing occurs in a particular section of the fingerboard.
 
Check the archives on this. There's a long thread on intonation and equal temperament.

The gist of it is that our ears are used to hearing a scale that does not track fully with the "true" mathematical relationships between pitches we commonly think of as the notes we're listening to. So our musical expectations involve compromise to begin with.

That pops up with intonation issues in fretted instruments, because the spatial relationships between frets tend to be expressed in mathematical terms, the goal being a precise placement of the crown of the fret.

Then you add into the mix the tendency of a string under tension (as when it is fretted) to sound slightly sharp. Compensate by tuning, and the fretted string is fine; when plucked in open position, though, it sounds flat. Fretted octaves and bell tones at the octave can be a little different; you will hear "beating." Fix that with a little fine tuning, and everything except a first position "D" chord will sound OK. That one, however, will stick out like a sore thumb.

Now toss into the mix the variables of string length. A longer string will be easier to intonate with precision than a shorter one. And: gauge - a thicker string will be harder to intonate with precision than a thinner one (a tendency modified, of course, by a thinner string's tendency to stretch more under the same tension).

Confused yet? Well, so are the rest of us, including builders. What this means to me is that (1) you can't always get what you want, and (2) Mick tells us that sometimes you can get what you need - try compensated saddles, compensated nuts, Buzz Feiten systems (a combination of the above ideas) or - as Adam suggests - the fanned fretting system.

Ralph Novak is the guy to see here (Novax), and this compromise looks wierd but is competent in principle. The fanned frets are based on the reasonable assumption that better intonation in the treble range (most guitars) will be had with a series of string lengths. Notice how long the bass strings are.

And you though this would be simple. :D



[This message has been edited by Treeline (edited 07-26-2000).]
 
I had the Buzz Feiten mod done to one of my Strats and I have to say that it is incredible. Perfect intonation; the whole neck. Its really amazing. Cost me $140.00 and worth every penny.
Its what they call a "tempered" tunning system. The nut is moved forward a little bit, then there is a formula used where you take the guage of each string and use that to figure out saddle placement.
I guess the only reason it can be done is because the technology is so good these days that tunners are VERY accurate.
Its sweet being able to play a open Dm and then funking out on a tenth fret Dm 7th and their both perfecly in tune.
 
Anyone else tried the Buzz Feiten system? I'm really curious about it. Sounds like someone has been doing a little calculus.
 
Another issue that's common on a lot of guitars and VERY VERY common on LPs is one of "bad fretscale." The guitar companys don't admit this problem exists, and in many cases it doesn't bother people, but sometimes when it's really bad, and you can't get a guitar to be in tune all over the neck, and you can't figure out why--it's the fretscale. And Les Pauls are notorius for this.

What happens is the tolerances in the fret slotting machine slip, or are otherwise off. Any good luthier with an accurate fretscale template and a loop can sniff this problem out for you. Generally, if the slot is off by more than a few 1000ths of an inch, you may start to hear tuning/intonation problems--depending on how good your ears are. If it's off" above the 12th fret, you can probably live with it, if it's in the middle of the neck and it bothers you, the only fix is a new fingerboard done by a very good luthier. Either that, or you sell the guitar. My Les Paul had places that were out 12-15 thousandths and I had my luthier replace the fingerboard. And now frankly, I've gotten spoiled by having a perfect fretscale on my Paul. It's always in tune everywhere on the neck.

When I consider buying a new guitar, the fretscale issue is always on my mind. It's NOT just Gibson problem either--Fender had the problem for a while too, though my luthier tells me Fender cleaned up their act in the last few years while never actually admitting there was a problem. Back in the 80s, I bought a Carvin electric. It was off so much I sent it back. They told me: "It can't be wrong--it was cut by a $100K machine." Great reasoning! And I just bought a Strat neck from Musikraft, and all the way up the neck, the even frets were a tad sharp, the odd frets a tad flat. Again, I replaced the fingerboard. My luthier told me the Warmouth scales are off too. It's just a matter of where on the neck it's off, by how much, and if you hear it. It is common, but you won't get the guitar companies to admit it.

However, the proof is that the fretscale formula is simply math--precise math, but just math. My guy routinely pulls the frets out of the fingerboard and lays his dead-on accurate template down on the fingerboard, and you can see where the slots are just off. In some cases as much a 15/1000ths or more which is quite visible without a loop.
 
David, who's your guy, if he cares to be made known?
How much did he hit you up for the operation?
Thanks,
Philip
 
pchorman

His name is Richard Stanley, and he's basically "Yoda." A little old guy who's a jedi master at EVERYTHING about guitars from woodworking to finishes, to electroncs and PUPs, to metalurgy in a ridiculous level of detail and precision. This is a man who speaks in "1000ths of an inch." He's always ends up being right, too.

All his work is amazing, but it doesn't come quickly or cheap. He's infuriatingly slow and methodical, and he gets a lot of money--I think he's up to $65/hr. If you didn't know his work, and didn't know that the job was gonna be awesome when you get it back, you'd easily be tempted to "pull the job." He'll push your patience to the limit, but as I say, when you see the work, you're amazed.

He's been studying the fretscale thing in detail for ages. It sounds like BS when you first hear about it, but he's got documentation on the fingerboard of every guitar he's refretted in the last 20 years. I've seen the evidence, it's TRUE. If you knew this guy, you'd know that odds of him being wrong about this are nonexistent.

But the bottom line issue with fretscale is "can you live with it." In some cases you certainly can. He's NOT just selling people work they don't need. He'll tell you when the slots are within acceptable tolerances. My friend has a 55 LP Custom, and the original frets weren't as "off" as mine were and left his alone. He doesn't hear a problem, and he's got better ears than I do.

If you hear a problem you can't live with it, unless your really attached to the specific guitar, you're probably better off selling it and finding a guitar that doesn't bother you.

My Les Paul job cost $600-700 back in 1987 ($25/hr back then) and would cost a lot more now. He had to replace the original bindings on the new board, and re do all the trapezoid inlays, and they now look MUCH better than on a stock LP. They're far more even, there's no gap filler. They look completely "stock" at a glance, but have the quality of custom inlay work up close. BTW, this is a 1954 Les Paul that wasn't mint anyway, so I didn't mind putting that kind of money in it.

He did my new Strat's fingerboard this past year. He had it 6 months before he got it on his bench! I can't remember how much the fingerboard part was cause I was having him do a bunch of other work too. It was an easier job--no bindings and just dot inlays. I wanna say about $450 with frets installed. I think his standard fret job is around $200. BTW his fret jobs are unreal, and he epoxies each fret in so they never give you any trouble even many years later.

The trouble I have now is I am completely spoiled by this guy's fingerboards. Almost everything I pick up feels like crap by comparrison. If I wanna buy a guitar, I know I'll probably have the board redone. I dread it! It's a powerful disuader. So instead of having a lot of guitars, I only have two guitars, but they're both amazing.
 
I too have heard about and actually HEARD misplaced frets. But I kinda think that somebody is pulling your chain when they want to switch your fingerboards and charge you that kind of money. The first question that pops up in my mind is : Wow - if the guy gets all the slots in the right places in a compound radius board (which is the only truly correct way to make a fingerboard)then what does he use to do the fret dress so that the frets crown is universally the same width,(in 1000´s of an in. of course) and 2)If those frets are perfectly placed and crowned on an untensioned neck (i.e. no strings) what happens when we adjust the truss rod for some relief (measured in 1000´s of an in. again of course) and cause the neck to be a couple of thousandths of an in. shorter due to the forward bow or relief in the neck ?? Hmmm ??? The problem lies elsewhere I believe. DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND THIS POST - misplaced frets and for that matter nut slots and bridges are REALITY in mass produced guitars. But I can tell you that there is a REAL solution, and one that I imagined as a teeenager and dismissed as stupid. The Buzz Feiten system came out a few years ago and I thought "YES !! finally somebody figured it out !!! " Then I played one (brand new Anderson)and by itself it did sound greatly improved and in-tune with itself. But when I played with another instrument, namely the piano, or just your good ´ol keyboard, then I heard the problem with the Feiten system perfectly. The guitar still didn´t sound right with another instrument. I must tell you that I have very good ears and took my first real electric guitar back to the store the same day I bought it because the chords were not in tune up and down the neck.(the shop owner finally adjusted the intonation AFTER he strobe tuned it and I showed him then what notes on what strings were off. Looking back, the tune-o-matic had never been adjusted on that guitar at all from the factory; the inserts were all in a straight line and he just expected another 15 year old wannnabe rock star who needed a guitar to pose with in front of the mirrror (:>Þ)) So, to continue with the Feiten test I did, I ended up not wanting to chop up all my guitars, or to have just one that was better than the others,so I decided that my own tricks I have learned through trial and error would have to do until THE answer came along.(BTW:the Feiten system does require that the guitar be tuned and intonated differently than standard tuning and intonation dictates.) Now I can tell you what I have been rambling about - THE ANSWER IS HERE !! Go to http://www.earvana.com and you will see it. The nut is compensated and the frets stay in their right position.(As opposed to the Feiten system where the nut is moved 2,5mm south - closer to the frets) In fact, one of my favorite guitars, which I refused to sell even though it had an out-of-place bridge and the low E didn´t intonate properly - now plays ungodly in tune. The slant we are all used to seeing at the bridge flattens out considerably. Check out some of the people who are praising this on their site. I really believe you will be amazed at this nut and what it does. The problem is not that the frets are inaccurately placed -Pythagoras got it right the first time- but he didn´t take into account string height and string tension. So when I was a teenager and looked at the guitar and said to myself " if the bridge is adjusted so the guitar plays in tune, why isn´t the nut ?", it just logically follows that the nut, like the bridge, should have varying compensation based on string height and tension. These guys have the patent on it. And I thought it was a stupid idea as a teen that the nut shouldn´t be straight.
 
Interesting, but the only thing I don't like here is it seems to be a one-size-fits-all-string-gauges-and-types solution. Not only do the gauges vary significantly, the relationship between adjacent string diameters changes from one manufacturer to the next as well, and I don't see any adjustability here (other than by filing). Seems like a lot of work to get right.
 
Pc - you asked how far people go in setting their intonation. I want to help you understand why string gauge is not as crucial as you might think. The problem has to do with the fact that the guitar is an equal temperament instrument which means that the formula that is used to determined fret placement is mathematically and theoretically correct and realistically way off. It sounds like from your first post that you are "hearing" this although I am not sure as to whether or not you hear it or "see" it on your tuner. Anyway, what the earvana nut does is compensate for the things that theory and math did not (excluding the fanned fret system as I understand it). Because the formula does not take into consideration tension and height the resulting outcome is less than nice sounding in some instance and downright horrible in others. Example : Do a complete set-up on your guitar, (or have it done by a pro) that encompasses every aspect of your playing. String gauge, tuning (if not standard 440 EADGBE then that too), and the relief that you need for your playing style and then the intonation can be set to it´s absolute best for your guitar. Even beyond comparing the open and 12th fret, I sometimes check the open and then the 5th,7th,12th,17th as well as 19th, especially on electrics where adjusting intonation is so easy compared to acoustics. No matter what you will always end up with some sort of a compromise. After all that is done, play an Emaj 1st position chord. If you do not hear the G# being like about 2-3 cents sharp, play each string of the chord to your tuner and you will see that G# is off. Likewise, try the Gmaj chord (standard 3 finger variety). Okay EVERYBODY knows this chord sounds like trash. First, the major third between the G on the low E string and the B on the A string sounds very bad. The major third is a "good" sounding interval, but in this case the guitars imperfection renders it totally useless. A deaf man can hear the beat frequency between these two strings´ pitches becasue of the change in tension from fretting them. Also, listen to the G on the high E and the open B string. The B string dominates this chord and is the main reason that rock guitarists (Angus anyone ?) play a Gmaj as a G5 (i.e. - 3x0033 or just xx0033) But I digress. This has nothing to do with the quality of your instrument it is just flawed by design. When a string is depressed to the fret, tension increases and the pitch produced is higher than it should be. This is why a guitar with large amounts of relief in the neck will hardly play in tune at all. Try another fun experiment. Get a slide and your favorite electric guitar and be sure it is in tune. Tune to that standard (440 or wahtever)that your guitar is set up for. Now carefully place the slide over the first offending fret that you have found when playing normally. With the slide postioned directly over the fret and contacting the string lightly, you will get the exact pitch the string SHOULD produce when it is used to shorten the string length. So what can be done ? Well for years people have found compromises that work to minimize the problem but what really needed to happen is an adjusted fret placement scale that takes tension into account - the fanned system as I understand it. But that is really not an option unless you can get it installed on your guitar and even then it LOOKS like it would take a while to get used to playing on it. The Earvana solution is cheaper than a new guitar, does not modify your guitar in any way-except for making it sound better, and it seriously straightens out the largest percentage of intonation problems.
 
HR, no argument with your points or examples. I am still uncertain how this earvana thing corrects the common design deficiencies. By inspection, it shortens the strings closest to the middle, not from the bridge side but from the nut side. What we end up with is less distance between the nut and first fret for the middle strings, plus decreased tension. This should affect their sound not only when played open but in any fretted position (the decreased tension compensates for their shortening). Mostly, this should change the tone step between open and first fret.

The examples you cited play the center strings in open position, so I'm wondering how the mod brings things into balance for these particular chords.

I usually mitigate the ugly chord problem by depressing as lightly and as close behind the fret as possible.

Anyway, if you continue the dialog, I will understand it best if you keep within the simple terms of string length, tension and diameter.

pc
 
Okay pc - here you go.

When a guitar refuses to play in tune, fret spacing is the first thing that needs to be checked. Assuming fret spacing is correct, the second important variable affecting intonation is the stretching of the string, which occurs when a note is fretted. This stretching increases the total length of the string, which increases the tension on the string, and therefore causes the note to play sharp.
Each string behaves differently with regard to sharpening tendency when fretted. There are three related rules which apply here: 1) sharpening from fretting is inversely proportional to pitch (The Pitch Rule). 2) Pitch is proportional to string tension (The Tension Rule); and 3) String tension is proportional to string mass (The String Mass Rule).
The pitch rule tells us that a guitar will display a global tendency to more sharpness as the open string pitch goes down, and the low E string does in fact go sharp more then the high E string. However, the tension rule and the string mass rule also come into play, and we see this especially when we compare the sharpening behavior of the G and D strings. If we were to apply the pitch rule only to G and D, we would expect more sharpening for D then from G. But D in fact sharpens less then G. This is because of the metal winding on D which adds mass.Even though D is lower in pitch than G, it has a higher tension than G and therefore sharpens less. If you want to test this, you can tune your unwound G-string down to D, the string will now sharpen more when fretted at the nut than when it was tuned to G.
We can rectify the tendency to sharpness from fretting by adjusting the total length of the string from string length, and how much adjustment do we make?
To answer these questions, we need to first examine in more detail what happens when a note is fretted. The first component of stretching occurs when the string travels to the crown of the fret ("travel stretch"). However, when a guitarist frets a note, the finger isn't pressed directly down on the fret itself, instead, the finger is pressed down behind the fret, and more pressure is applied to make sure a firm string-to-fret contact is established in order to avoid buzzing. This causes additional stretching ("fretting stretch") Each of these string stretch components must be addressed at the appropriate end of the string for best intonation results.
The correct place to compensate for travel stretch is at the saddle. By setting the saddle itself back and / or by moving the string break-off point back, thereby adding to string length. The reason for this has to do with the relationship between the amount of stretch and the ratio of compression to active string length. As we fret the string on succeeding higher frets, the total string length when fretted, and the string tension increases because of the slope of the fingerboard with reference to the open string. Why then, doesn't each succeeding note get sharper? Because at the same time, the ratio of the compensation at the saddle to the active string length is increasing proportionally.
The correct place to compensate for fretting stretch is at the nut, by setting the string break-off point forward, which reduces the distance to the fret and thereby takes away sharpness caused by stretching. The reason for this has to do with the relationship between the ratio of fretting stretch and the ratio of the nut compensation to inactive string length. As notes are fretted higher on the fingerboard, the ratio of fretting stretch decreases because of the fingerboard slope. At the same time, however, the ratio of nut compensation to inactive string length is decreasing proportionally.
Compensation at the nut is correct when any note on the fingerboard fretted normally, as when playing the guitar, plays in tune. Adding complementary compensation at the nut, distributes the intonation improvement over the entire fingerboard.
The EARVANA NUT will enable a guitar to sound any note in tune anywhere on the fingerboard; assuming the open strings are properly tuned. The guitar will now function accurately as an equal-tempered instrument. For the guitar to function as a well-tempered instrument, however, requires the player's skills in proper tuning of the instrument.
It is well known that equal temperament is deficient because of anomalies in harmonicity which show up especially when chords are played. By careful tuning, the guitarist can restore harmonicity by tuning in small compromises in equal temperament. In this respect, the guitar is different from say, a piano, where the technician can tune each note individually and thus tune the piano in to a well-tempered instrument independent of the player. The EARVANA tuning system optimizes the guitars harmonicity at any position on the fingerboard, not just at the positions where chords are played to tune guitar.

As well, you said you thought that the middle strings were shortened and not the others. Look at this photo and you will see that ALL the strings are shortened, just by varying amounts because of tension, mass and pitch. http://www.earvana.com/page 12.html Also if you think about it, the only thing that changes with a change in string gauge is the adjustments that are made to correct for the added tension. Generally speaking, the instrument is the same - i.e. same relief, same string height at the nut and the action would be similiar as well. The intonation just has to be adjusted due to the increase in mass as well as tension.

Lastly, did you see what the people who are using this said ?

"I am writing to tell you that the Earvana nut is quite simply...perfect.In fact because of it's adjustable function, it's definitely the Buzz Feiten
system perfected." God Bless you.
Jesse Blue, Luthier Warrior Instruments

"I sat playing chords for hours just to hear them in tune for the first time. I have many customers who will consider this the Holy Grail; the product sells itself.
Steve Daugherty, Owner-Guitar E.R.

"I totally endorse the Earvana tuning system. There is no more excuse for out of tune, out to lunch guitars anymore. If you are tired of those nasty "b" and "g" strings, get the Earvana nut....it works"
Tim Gibson, Luthier, Guitar Tech

And guess what ? I don´t even work for these guys!! I am just dumbfounded by the difference this thing made on my guitars. Outside of your ´Paul having a way out of whack fingerboard, I would bet that you would have the best ´Paul on your block with this nut.

[Edited by Headroom on 08-22-2000 at 04:40]
 
Thanks for all the info, HR. Since you happen to be well versed on the relationships between string gauge, tension, scale length, fret spacing and just about every other factor affecting intonation, please take a look at my other question posted (note bending on an acoustic) and tell me whether there's something you can add that hasn't already been discussed.

thanks again.
 
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