Scored Several Folded-Horn Type Cabs- NOW What?

[stevieb]

Picked up eight folded-horn cabs. The guy thought they were all unloaded, he's a house renovator and just wanted them out of his way. I've inspected them fairly thoroughly, but have not hooked any of them up, yet (garage is full, and we just had a cold snap.)

Questions are in bold, for those who want to cut to the chase...

I have done a decent amount of live sound, including outdoor gigs, but I have precious little experience with folded horns. My perception (which may be wrong) is they are old-school, boomy but high-efficiency cabs.

Two Earthquake cabs, with Cerwin Vega 188eb 18's in them. A horrible vid on u-tube calls these w-bins, which makes sense, based on their internal design of a rear-firing (but blocked off from the rear) driver and a front outlet top and bottom. These are the ones that excite me the most, as I currently have no other sub cabs. CV says the drivers are good down to 38Hz- that's well into sub territory, right? CV also rates them at 250 watts RMS- which seems sorta anemic for subs- I understand they may be able to handle up to about 350 watts, but will they provide strong SPL's at that wattage range, can I push them harder (say, 5oo to 700 watts per speaker,) or should I just change the drivers (hope not, 18's ain't cheep)? Finally, can these be laid down, so the openings are left and right?

Six cabs that have that "block off the sides of the drivers" design. (I hope you know what I mean.) Only one is loaded with a Gauss 4583A driver, which googling revealed is a PA woofer. I have no experience using this type of cab. Two are 30H X 30W X 24D, the other 4 are 36 X 30 X 24. I understand the internal cab size can have a considerable effect on the output, and that this type of cab can "mask" driver distortion, making it difficult to hear when driver destruction is imminent- Are these things true?

Two Peavey Ch-4C horn cabs, loaded with Peavey 22A horns. 600hz - 16khz. 150 watts rms.

My better speakers ended up in New Orleans with my son, after the rock n roll summer camps were over. Other FOH equipment I have here in Atlanta include:
Two Electro-Voice DH2A horns, not in cabs;
Two Fender 15" wedge speakers (not the best cabs or drivers, I know);
Two Fender 12" polycarbonate cabs, loaded;
One Samson EX-500 powered sub, needs a pre-amp board.


Other questions:

Will these speakers do will, in a 21st century world, or are they obsolete designs?
I am thinking I only need two of the folded horns- What should I do with the others- sell 'em? How much? Or scrap 'em?

I have two Radio Shack 15's, only 100 watts RMS handling capacity- Perhaps I should install them into two of these FH cabs and sell them? Would $100 be a fair price for both me and they buyer?
The relatively low power handling capability of all these speakers concerns me: Are those concerns valid, or what?

Thanks, all.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Earthquakes more or less kicked off the modern era of subwoofers. They are named after the movie for which they were used. I wouldn't call them W-bins, I'd call them scoops. Since getting all the publicity from the movie they became popular with medium sound providers in the 70s and 80s and with DJs. As sub technology advanced they fell out of favor with sound companies and are now often referred to as one note wonders.

Folded horn woofers have increased LF extension in multiples placed with their horns together. The more the better.

Here's a little something on the 22a: http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/horn_eq.cfm

Putting random drivers into a folded horn design is not likely to work well. Sell them unloaded and let the buyer find appropriate drivers.

 

[stevieb]

How do you mean, "(won't) work well?" Please explain. How will I know they aren't working well? Low output? bad sound?

I powered up the Earthquakes, the one folded horn with the Gauss driver in it, and the Peaveys, with a QSC USA1310. Not all at once- two speakers (two amp channels) at a time. All seemed to not be very loud. Weak amp? or inefficient speakers/enclosures?

One of the two shorter folded horns had been sitting in water, the bottom piece of plywood and a little less than 2 inches of the sides were rotten- I have no intention of completely rebuilding the whole thing (I'd just toss 'em) so I cut off the bottom two inches and made new bottom plates- then did the same with his brother. You wouldn't think it would kill the response, do you?

Also, your statement, "Folded horn woofers have increased LF extension in multiples placed with their horns together," doesn't make much sense to me. "The more the better," I understand. What does "increased LF extension" mean? And "placed with their horns together?" Sorry, but I am just not following you.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

How do you mean, "(won't) work well?" Please explain. How will I know they aren't working well? Low output? bad sound?

Poor sound and a good chance of blowing up the drivers.

I powered up the Earthquakes, the one folded horn with the Gauss driver in it, and the Peaveys, with a QSC USA1310. Not all at once- two speakers (two amp channels) at a time. All seemed to not be very loud. Weak amp? or inefficient speakers/enclosures?

The amp shouldn't be too weak to get them fairly loud. Maybe you have one of each pair wired backwards. If so the subs' sound can largely cancel out.

One of the two shorter folded horns had been sitting in water, the bottom piece of plywood and a little less than 2 inches of the sides were rotten- I have no intention of completely rebuilding the whole thing (I'd just toss 'em) so I cut off the bottom two inches and made new bottom plates- then did the same with his brother. You wouldn't think it would kill the response, do you?

You've essentially retuned the cabinets, probably not for the better.

Also, your statement, "Folded horn woofers have increased LF extension in multiples placed with their horns together," doesn't make much sense to me. "The more the better," I understand. What does "increased LF extension" mean? And "placed with their horns together?" Sorry, but I am just not following you.

When you set them up in multiples with the horns close enough together they start acting like one big speaker with better extension to low frequencies. You can lay them down like you asked in your original post, but put the horns together in the middle rather than left and right. The more you use (of the same type of sub) the better it works.

 

[stevieb]

Thanks, again. Please do not interpret any of the following as push-back- I truly appreciate your comments, and will use the information as best I can. I also probably should have said this in my first post, but it was a case of "not knowing what I didn't know."

First, I may have mis-identifed the larger cabs- further internet searching revealed this
http://www.altecpro.com/pdfs/vintage/SpeakerAndMics/systems/1215A 1225A Speaker Systems.pdf
The larger cabs look much more the 1215A there, than this:
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-CWV-JE36C-LIST

but my cabs do have a single 18 inch (not a 15) in them.

I had few options for the cab that had the rotten bottom (I've known women with the same problem ...)- as I said, rebuilding the whole thing held no interest for me, and as the sides were bad up to about 2 inches, replacing the sides would have meant basically rebuilding the whole thing. I suppose I could have put another piece of plywood over all three sides, but these things are already heavy enough- adding the weight of another full sheet of 1/2 inch thick plywood would have made them much heavier. I was aware I was re-tuning the cabs, but I figured that I would not need, nor would I want to cart around THREE pairs, so if they are now junk- well, they were, for a different reason, when I got them. They originally had 21600 cubic inches of capacity (outside measure, but good enough for my purposes here) and now have 20160 cubic inches- 7% less. Not a huge difference, I think. Do you agree?

I only powered up the so-called (by me!) Earthquakes one at a time, with the other amp channel going to one of the Peavey HF horns. Frankly, I suspect the amp, being a budget one, is probably not really as powerful as QSC would have me believe. All my other big power amps are current 500 miles away in New Orleans, so I have no other amp to try.

I won't cry too much if I blow these Rat-Shack 15's- nobody would buy them from me, even at $50 for the pair, one guy offered me $20 and I laughed at him; I have no other cabs that require 15's, nor do I want to get some for these speakers; and my son the pro sound guy has turned his nose up at them. They came to me in a vintage Sunn 2X15 cab- I sold the cab for way more than I paid for it AND the pair of Earth 1X15 cabs AND the bass I bought as a lot, and the buyer of the Sunn cab had no interest in the Rat-Shack 15's- so if they prove to be inappropriate for the FH cabs, who cares? But, I do appreciate your pointing that issue out- again, no push-back here!

Once I decide which pair(s) to keep, can you suggest some good 15's to put in them? I currently have the one Gauss 15, and apparently these are rare and expensive drivers- only one currently available used, asking price of $500!! So, I would probably want to sell this one and buy a pair of drivers that cost less each, and were matched. Peavey Black Widow 15's typically cost about $150 each (or less), for instance.

Thanks, again.

 

[moresound]

You can use the Peaveys in those bins. Back in the day it was preferred cause of the field basket replacements were easy and fast (about 10 minutes if you knew what you were doing). But I always liked a good old EV 15 in them.

You always would want to places them on there sides to couple with the floor = better bass response. And to get a great sound you'd want 3 or 4 a side.
You can run a very powerful amp into one speaker and as long as you don't clip that amp you will be fine with out blowing that speaker.
And I take it that you have a good X-over?

Why would you want these anyways? 2 of these take up pretty much all of the space in a van!
When Mackie first came out with powered bass bins I thought it was going to be a joke but, upon using them I found that they are a life (and back) saver. I can get a great bass response with just two of the 15 plus their high packs. A lot has to do with what you have at FOH and how you use that gear.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Those Altecs are W-bins as far as I can tell, and they're apparently aimed at musical instrument applications rather than reinforcement. I don't know how much cutting off a couple of inches would change, but it would have some change. Personally, I'd recover the drivers and bail on the cabs in that condition.

The QSC should be adequate for testing the speakers unless it's malfunctioning. I would doubt QSC overstated their output. Older PA speakers, especially folded horns, didn't have the higher power handling of today's speakers. Horns tend to be more efficient anyway.

If you want to use them it should be possible to find drivers appropriate for them, especially if you can take pictures and identify them accurately. I'd keep the matched pair or the set of 4 matched cabinets and sell the rest as is.

 

[stevieb]

I gathered some good info here, and from Ron at Northwest Speaker Exchange in Atlanta, and have all the info I think I need. So, soon I may close this thread.

First, to answer some questions posed of me:

moresound, I don't particularly want these cabs, it's more I have them. The whole mess was free, all I had to was cart them home. The guy was renovating a house, and they were in his way- he thought they were all empty. Lucky me to find three good, functional drivers among the bunch. I figured, all along, that if they prove to not work for me, I can unload them for a few bucks. Looks like, unloaded, a pair of the 30x30x24 (plus or minus) might be worth $100 or so. And, yes, I do have a couple of active cross overs.

Oh, by the way, Ron called the 30X30X24 cabs "Perkins" cabs, as I recall. Ring any bells?

These are not Altec cabs- for one thing, they have CV drivers in them. Best I can tell, these are PA cabs.

Ron told me today he can get me 18's that are new and have much higher power handling capability for about $225 each, and Eminence 15's for $80-100 each, if I wanna reload these. I may be able to do better than that; my point is that is about the most I would have to pay. Peaveys are a bit higher, not sure which way I may go.

When we did the rock n roll summer camp last summer, we sub-rented a pair of subs that had 2 18's in each cab. They were not folded, but rather forward-firing. They worked fine, only problem was we had to rent them (but did get them cheap.) I'm thinking the W-cabs (hmm, hope they are not from Texas... ) will take the places of those, we can decide later if we want to replace the drivers. Actually, that bring up another question: We have two large cabs, currently unloaded (no drivers for them in our inventory) that require two 18's each. Came out of a club. I wonder, which might be the better to keep- the W cabs, or the big forward-firing sub cabs. Ideas, anyone?

I think I might keep the W cabs, and use some 15's and horns I have for mids and highs- and sell all the Perkins cabs.

Anyway, beyond possibly answering that last question, don't feel like you need to respond further, if you don't want to- I appreciate the time and thought given to this, and don't want to further impose, unless you don't mind.

Thanks.