Rusty K's question...and mine, too

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getuhgrip

getuhgrip

Bring Back Transfat!
I didn't want to muddy the waters on Rusty's thread about CPU usage, but it brought up some questions I've got.

I'm running Ntrack with an omni studio on a machine with 1000mhz, 512mb, 60gb 7200rpm drive.

Gidge, Slack...when you guys talk about "sub-mix", do you mean record a track, add FX, save it.
Record next track, add FX, mix down with track1 and save as a seperate entity.
Then open it as its own file, record 3rd track (actually track2 of the new "saved" song), and go thru the process again?

Also, I don't get the "aux" channel thing.
 
getuhgrip...

What you're describing sounds more like ping-ponging. I wasn't the one who mentioned sub-mixing, but I think I might be able to shed some light on a few things.

I mentioned destructive editing. Destructive editing means that you apply an effect to a track, and it physically changes the file on disk. There's no going back unless you make a backup copy of the original track. Forgetting about the obvious drawback, destructive editing can be effective in saving CPU resources, because the effect is no longer realtime (however, n-Track still leaves the effect in the chain, in bypass mode, so that you can still see your settings). I know it seems like you'd never want to do this....but consider something like a bass line. You apply a compression effect until you acheive the bass sound that you're after. Once you get it right, it is no longer necessary to have that compressor running in realtime, so applying the effect destructively might be a wise way to free up some resources. Of course later you might decide that you need to play with the compression on the bass a bit, so you restore the backup copy you so wisely made, and uncheck the "bypass" option in the compressor effect on the bass track....whamo, you're back in business. Of course this isn't optimal, but with limited CPU resources, it can become necessary.

Aux channels in n-Track are like effect send-returns, but you can have as many of them as you want. To use an aux channel, you insert an effect into an aux channel via the n-Track mixer, and then you send a track to it with the track's "send to aux" volume slider(s). Finally, you adjust the aux channel's input & output volume sliders to taste. The benfits are:

a) You have more control over how much of your track you send to an effect or GROUP OF effects.

b) You can send multiple tracks through the same effect. Say you have 3 cymbal tracks, and you want them all on the same reverb, an aux channel with a reverb is just the ticket. Instead of three reverb effects sucking CPU power, you now have just one. Instead of adjusting three reverb units for your cymbals, you now adjust only one.

c) You can send tracks to an effect dynamically either using automation or drawing send to aux envelopes. Have you heard that weird song I did a long time ago called "Me vs. Me?" At the end there is some bluesy guitar and as it progresses, it seems to slow down and get all distorted and weird sounding. Basically what I did was to create an aux channel with a pitch shift plugin set to something like -1 octave. Then I drew send to aux envelopes on the bluesy guitars such that as they progressed, the more you hear the pitch shift plugin, until eventually it's all you hear. ( http://www.slackmaster2000.com )

d) You can control whether the aux channels are pre or post fader & EQ. This really isn't a benefit of using aux channels, but it is something to note when you are using them.

n-Track also has track grouping capabilities. I think this must be what is *often* meant by sub-mixing. You can basically hook a bunch of tracks together such that you can make changes to all of them together. I've never used this feature, because I've been doing this all long via the aux channels.

What you described when you mentioned sub-mixing is more similar to ping-ponging. This is something that I do on occasion, but it's not a good way to mix. For instance, I'll often create a mixdown of just my drum tracks when I'm tracking. That way I can still hear the drums while I record, but I don't have to have 8 extra tracks cluttering things up. I will also do this on occasion when I start maxing out my system. If I've created a guitar sound using 4 guitar tracks, and I'm real happy with it, I'll create a mixdown of those guitar tracks and add it to the project. Then I'll mute the original 4 tracks. I turn off "read data from tracks when muted" at this point. I usually don't like mixing that many tracks though.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Wow Slack, that's a lot to digest! I printed this out and will take it down to my studio in the morning. Read, try. Read, try.

I just got the Omni and haven't gotten to in depth with it or Ntrack yet. I guess it's time to emmerse myself.
Got another question that came to mind re-reading Rusty's thread. If plugins can be taxing to a systems resources, why don't more people just use outboard rack FX? These aren't putting any load on the computer, right? I kinda thru this out in another thread but haven't gotten much input.

Thanks,
Rick
 
My opinion is that rack gear and computer recording just dont mix....you already have latency issues to deal with depending on your gear, and outboard gear only adds to it....seeing as you have the Omni which claims to be low latency and has aux channels for outboard gear, you could probably do it.....but when you are looking at running maybe 2 different reverb units, 1 or 2 delay units, 2 or 3 compressors, that gets hard to juggle with a computer based DAW....I wish I could tell you somebody who's doing it so that they could give you some assurance, but I dont know anyone who is.....

but what you are looking at also is cost/performance issues, which youve heard me preach in another thread....

I believe once you get the plugins working for you, youll love them and swear off rack gear.....

btw, i never have done submixing because track count for me has never been a problem...destructive processing of tracks i have done as CPU power is what I lack (500mhz Celeron:rolleyes: )....
 
Outboard gear is a fine option....but there are problems. First and foremost, D/A/D conversion. If you're going to run tracks out to analog gear, then you're going to require more conversion, which will not help your sound. Also, you're going to require enough inputs & outputs to make it all work smoothly, which can get expensive. Then consider how expensive outboard gear is; in Rusty K's thread people were talking about using 1-3 effects PER TRACK. You got the money for that many processors? Finally, you lose the ONLY thing that makes recording on a DAW great: automation.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Ok, so latency (keeping tracks in origional time with each other?) and conversion (signal degradation via multiple D/A/D convrsions) are the draw backs.

What I thought was being hacked out in Rusty's thread was the ability to apply FX to a track, save it. Then reopen it and add more tracks. Track 1 having been saved with added FX no longer representing a resourse burden in its saved capacity when additional tracks are recorded with it.

Make sense?
 
Great thread all --

This is starting to make sense!!!

Sounds like you can get away with processing appropriate effects on a per track basis, then just re-import them, yes?

Keeping in mind, that you may want to tweak them later on, depending on how your mix is evolving ... and I can see how using an aux channel can greatly simplifiy your work ... can be powerful if used right, I guess.

Anyway I just learned how to convert midi to wave today using N-track, so I'm a happy duck. Yep.
 
Another good option is:Create your main folder for a given song,
and start building your song up.As you start getting tracks finished,create another folder("Title"2 or whatever),add effects to your liking to given tracks and render them down w/different names("title"delay rthm gtr 1)and move them to that second folder.That way,you have the main folder w/the raw tracks you're
working on,and a folder w/the processed tracks,hopefully in keeper form.Save tracks you're happy w/to cdrw,of course.
 
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