Running a pre through a pre

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famous beagle

famous beagle

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I was wondering what the difference would be in using an external pre on a standalone recorder (could be tape or digital) that has its own pres.

For instance, let's say you had a nice, cassette 4-track like a Tascam 246 or something. If you ran through a nice pre, like a UA or something, and then into the channel input of the 4-track (which has a pre in it), would it sound any better than just running straight into the Tascam?

In other words, would running through the recorder's own pre suck any of the extra goodness you'd have normally attained from the nice external pre?

I know that you'd be using the line input option on the recorder (or wouldn't need hardly any trim/gain) because you'd have it from the external pre, but I was just wondering if traveling through the recorder's circuitry would make it moot.


I've never personally A/B'ed this type of thing. Has anyone else?

Thanks
 
That is something we typically avoid doing, ever...

Try it, see if it works for you. :)
 
A microphone input expects a microphone level signal, whereas a microphone preamplifier outputs a line level signal.

That's the point of a preamp. Mic level in, line level out.
If you run a pre into a pre you're either going to seriously overload the second preamp, or turn the first preamp down so much that it isn't doing any amplifying anyway.

If you run a standalone preamp into a line level input then it's all good.
How much of a difference it makes just depends on the gear, but technically speaking the path is fine.

Some line inputs completely bypass the preamp circuitry - Some don't.
 
Steenamaroo said:
A microphone input expects a microphone level signal, whereas a microphone preamplifier outputs a line level signal.

That's the point of a preamp. Mic level in, line level out.
If you run a pre into a pre you're either going to seriously overload the second preamp, or turn the first preamp down so much that it isn't doing any amplifying anyway.

If you run a standalone preamp into a line level input then it's all good.
How much of a difference it makes just depends on the gear, but technically speaking the path is fine.
Click to expand...

^^^Steen nailed it as usual :thumbs up:^^^

Some line inputs completely bypass the preamp circuitry - Some don't.
Click to expand...

This took me a while and plenty of frustration to realise and was a large part of the reason i bought the AI i did. For a while i was using a Motu 8 pre which was ok as it was but i wanted to try some external pre's with it. I ran the line outs from an ART MP Tube into the "line in's" on the motu which were part of the combo mic/line input on the front. Well, the result was messy to say the least. I thought something was wrong with the ART so borrowed a mates and had the same problem. After trying a couple of other external pre's into it i realised that the line in on the motu was still running the signal through the preamp in the motu so it was essentially double amping it. I borrowed a mates Edirol FA101 and ran my ART MP into the separate line in's on the back and suddenly, voila! Years later i bought a Presonus Firestudio Mobile and just run my external pres' into the line in's on the back and have never had a problem :)
 
famous beagle said:
I was just wondering if traveling through the recorder's circuitry would make it moot.


I've never personally A/B'ed this type of thing. Has anyone else?

Thanks
Click to expand...

I have and found going direct to line in and bypassing the pre-in cleaned it up. YMMV.
I have on other units pre into a pre, and not noticed much difference.

The only way for you to tell is to compare, maybe your <cassette input> will degrade and muck up the audio maybe it wont.

The levels and all that will definitely distort in some instances. I had that issue before where the preamp was too loud for the interface in....but if I lowered the preamp settings it lost its tone...

Im lazy, less is more...a straight wire to the mic and to the in, less crap in between makes life easier.
 
I have an LA610 running into an 8PRE even as I type. Works great.
 
famous beagle said:
I was wondering what the difference would be in using an external pre on a standalone recorder (could be tape or digital) that has its own pres.

For instance, let's say you had a nice, cassette 4-track like a Tascam 246 or something. If you ran through a nice pre, like a UA or something, and then into the channel input of the 4-track (which has a pre in it), would it sound any better than just running straight into the Tascam?

In other words, would running through the recorder's own pre suck any of the extra goodness you'd have normally attained from the nice external pre?

I know that you'd be using the line input option on the recorder (or wouldn't need hardly any trim/gain) because you'd have it from the external pre, but I was just wondering if traveling through the recorder's circuitry would make it moot.


I've never personally A/B'ed this type of thing. Has anyone else?

Thanks
Click to expand...

For the record, you are asking two different questions here. Running the output of a preamp thru the input of a second preamp, as the thread title suggests, is a very different electrical proposition, than running the output of a preamp thru a line level input, as the body of the post describes.

With apples and oranges firmly in hand ,I stand back for the more technically oriented to carry on...
 
Jay Tee 4303 said:
For the record, you are asking two different questions here. Running the output of a preamp thru the input of a second preamp, as the thread title suggests, is a very different electrical proposition, than running the output of a preamp thru a line level input, as the body of the post describes.

With apples and oranges firmly in hand ,I stand back for the more technically oriented to carry on...
Click to expand...

This is true. I could have been more consistent in my OP. Different 4-tracks approach the input channels in different ways. The 246 has a switch that has a "mic/line" option. The level is then simply controlled by the trim knob; i.e., if you're plugging in a mic, you'll turn up the trim a good ways, but if it's a line level device (like a drum machine, effects output, or output from an external pre), you may not need to turn up the trim at all.

Other 4-tracks (like a Yamaha MT50) have a selector that switches between a "mic" position, an "instrument" position (for guitar/bass, etc.), and a "line" position (for line level devices).

I guess my question was mostly pertaining to the 246 model, because that's what I'd be doing. But I was really just asking about running through the channel's module, even if you're not really using the gain of the preamp. The circuity may be different in the Yamaha model, but I imagine it's simply three different levels of fixed attenuation.
 
I know this thread is a week old now and you have probably figured everything out but I thought I would put my two cents worth in anyway. I have a Tascam 244 and was dealing with the same issue. I purchased a tube pre, mostly for the phantom power. The 244 has a Trim knob for switching between mic and line inputs and it works great. Well, I tried every level of line on the 244 I could and could never get the fine control I have with the on-board channels and the sound was not acceptable. I finally found a "like new" phantom power supply on CL for half price and purchased it, that is all I really wanted in the first place. It works great and I am happy. Also, I am quite happy with the sound and performance of the on-board pres.

This may be important or not, but a couple of years ago I read an article somewhere, I don't remember where, that stated that using an external pre on a Tascam Porta Studio could damage the on-board pres. I don't know if this is true, and I have not found it written in any literature on the subject since.
 
Illsidgus said:
It doesn't matter if the water is cold or warm if you're going to have to wade through it anyway
Click to expand...
I think it depends on the machine. The preamps on my Tascam 488 cassette portastudio are better generally than the ones on my DAW {an Akai DPS 12i}. It also depends on what's being recorded. I find with voices and certain acoustic instruments, using an external preamp and going through the onboard preamps of the DPS12i gives me great headroom and I never have to struggle to get a good level. That's not the case using the onboard preamps alone unless they're right up full in which case there's less control and a chance of unwanted distortion. A singer can record 6~7 feet away from the mike and be clear as a bell with a good level. I can do likewise with acoustic guitars which I never could before, even with the 488.
 
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