Rules of thumb for EQing?

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I was wondering if anyone could offer some rules of thumb for using EQ on instruments. For instance, on a previous project an engineer eq'd quite a bit of low end off piano,strings, guitrar,etc. The question in is what freqeuncies get rounded off on which instruments.
 
A lot of instruments have their fundamental frequencies in the mid-lows. The engineer you mentioned probably did that to prevent the instruments from competing for the same frequency space.
 
Yes, that is why he did it, my questions is where do youstart rolling stuff off to avoid interference with the bass and bass drum?
 
I was wondering if anyone could offer some rules of thumb for using EQ on instruments. For instance, on a previous project an engineer eq'd quite a bit of low end off piano,strings, guitrar,etc. The question in is what freqeuncies get rounded off on which instruments.
You're not going to like this answer, but there are no such "rules of thumb". Not ones that are of any real use, anyway. It all depends upon what your recordings sound like versus what you want the final mix to sound like.

Learn what the various frequencies sound like so you can know what to listen for and what to do when you hear it. Sit down with a few different types of music and a 15-band graphic EQ. Play the music through the EQ with all the bands turned down and take one band at a time and turn them up and listen to what the various instruments sound like and are affected by that frequency band. Pay attention to the frequency numbers on the bands as you do this. Do this for a half-hour a night for a week or two, and then have a friend come in with different music and do the same thing, not letting you see what bands they are raising one at a time, and asking you to guess which ones they are. You may not get them all exact, but you should be able to get rather close most of the time. That's quite good enough as a start.

Also learn how to use a parametric sweep to clean up instrument tracks for things that may not otherwise be readily identifiable by just listening.

And learn to ignore charts and graphs that say "do this to this instrument at that frequency".. If you have the ears, you don't need those charts and recommendations, and will find out real quickly that they can often be just as wrong as they are right, but what you actually hear is actually there is almost never wrong.

G.
 
I agree with glen, I used to get so annoyed with myself because I couldn't really tell what the eq was doing. So quite blindly I used to read charts and books in an attempt to work out how to eq everything. I think that works for some people but it lead me to work with my eyes not my ears (which is a very bad habbit). There are so many EQing techniques out there. One guy I read about tried eqing every instrument in a particular range and choping ot everything else out. creating very exact difinative mixes with no clashes. The question you are asking abot making room for the bass. I usually make a hole for it, If I have a guitar I will first cut all low end off. by taking a parametric eq setting the first band to cut off and moving it up the band untill I can hear it taking effect then move it to the point just where I can't hear it, I sometimes do it to the top end aswell, it then gives you a little room to play with in the primary stages without changing the tone, in the later stages I can then adjust it to sit in the mix.

One of the problems with workng with DAWs draws you in to mix with your eyes because your looking at the values all the time and focusing on that. the moment you stop worring about how the graph is shaped or how high the values are/arn't is the moment your ears sharpen up. its like what they say about having one of your sences taken away. . . it heightens your others. Its a game of trial and error, no amount of research and reading will ever be worth 10 mins of actually doing it. You will be amazed how quickly you begin to pick things out. you start by messing around finding the best points by chance and then you evolve to know exactly where to find the right place.
 
The charts I linked to don't tell you how to EQ it. They simply show where the instruments overlap. :rolleyes:
 
The charts I linked to don't tell you how to EQ it. They simply show where the instruments overlap. :rolleyes:

Hey, I aint complaining. Knowing where to look also helps alot. just saying that alot of people use those charts as a holy grail. and its best not to fall into that trap
 
Yup, instruments do not put out simple frequencies.

If they did, every recording would be a platinum seller and every recording engineer would be replaced by a simple table-referencing plugin.

...life just ain't that simple....
 
The charts I linked to don't tell you how to EQ it. They simply show where the instruments overlap. :rolleyes:
As the author/builder of those charts, I have a pretty good idea what they contain ;) :D

I originally created that chart as part of a series I'm writing on critical/analytical listening. (I am in fact currently writing a column on the whole using the EQ to learn the frequencies thing I mentioned earlier.) It was (and is) meant, quite frankly, meant mostly to help teach floks how to do without it.

When I gave it to a few folks for beta testing, they all recommended that I release it on the site on it's own merits and not wait. I'll be honest with you; I almost wish I had not done that, as it has become a favorite tool for those who do not want to go through the "hassle" of actually learning how to use their ears without it, as easy as that may actually be.

Frankly, the only reason I still have it up there is because it is *by far* the most popular feature on my website, practically everywhere on the planet that has internet access; and if I pulled it off now, I'd have more people pissed at me than I could count.

G.
 
Thanks for the help

Thanks for all the replies. I figured this subject was not cut and dry.

Just a little history, I had a good local engineer who moved out of town and I decided to get my own gear based on his feedback. I played out for 22 years so my ears tire easily. I am just starting to mix down our next project and thru osmosis I am going thru the process he used. EQing was one of them. I like to use a bunch of bizzarre tambs so getting them to fit correctly in the mix can be tricky. I always wondered why my old engineer would mutter under his breath with each new sound I brought into his studio.

The chart does help me (I am a mechanical engineer so I like data) as does SSGlen's & benherrons posts. Thanks a bunch. Based on this feedback I guess now I need better speakers!

As far as a chart don't sell it short G. For me, it shows frequency overlaps that I can explore with my ears when I EQ to make room for other sounds and saves me some time. Remember my ears tire quickly. It provides a starting point which is exactly what I was after. BTW it would be neat to see where asian or world and popular synth pad instuments fall on the chart.
 
As the author/builder of those charts, I have a pretty good idea what they contain ;) :D

No wonder the logo on that page looked familiar! :laughings:

I originally created that chart as part of a series I'm writing on critical/analytical listening. (I am in fact currently writing a column on the whole using the EQ to learn the frequencies thing I mentioned earlier.) It was (and is) meant, quite frankly, meant mostly to help teach floks how to do without it.

I look forward to reading your work. The reason I went looking for those charts is because there's a large fold-out reproduction of a similar chart (the 1941 Quinby chart) in Katz's book that I thought might be useful to the OP.

I'll be honest with you; I almost wish I had not done that, as it has become a favorite tool for those who do not want to go through the "hassle" of actually learning how to use their ears without it, as easy as that may actually be.

I don't see the charts as a shortcut to mad EQing skillz at all. Knowing which instruments compete in a given part of the spectrum doesn't absolve the engineer of the task of deciding where to slice and dice the parts. That is very much a creative, rather than technical, decision. Or at least I'd hope the technical aspects would be performed with a creative purpose.
 
Let me explain where I'm coming from. Like any good little webmaster, I track the usage of my website pretty closely. Those charts (how many people don't realize there are two interactive charts in that app is something I find distressingly hilarious, too) are on their own more popular than the entire rest of the website put together. I have tracked heavy usage for the frequency chart for everyone from pro recording forums to home recording sites to DJ and trance music sites to car stereo hobbyist sites to DIY speaker builder sites. Countries of popularity (other than the US and the UK) have moved all around the world, from Columbia to Poland. Right now it's going very strong in Russia and Turkey, believe it or not. I've actually gotten e-mails on it from Katmandu, Nepal and the Seychelles in the middle of the Indian Ocean. It's become part of the study curriculum in professional recording schools from Arizona to Ireland. Nothing like that has happened with anywhere even close to the same kind of volume or popularity for the other web pages and apps on the site. It's almost become like a viral video on meTube.

While I do appreciate the popularity and the props, it also rather bothers me quite a bit, for one reason; that frequency chart should actually be the most useless page on that site.

Anybody worth their salt in music recording/production and with the ears required to truly do the task should have a need for that information that approaches zero.

But time and again, I come across scads of people from all different audio disciplines all over the planet who think that chart is a freakin' gift from God and cant mix or master or build speakers or do their class work, or whatever it is that they do without having that chart within reach. And nine times out of ten it's somebody looking for "rules of thumb" or a documented recipe of some type that tells them what to do, because they either just don't have the ears for it or don't want to take the time to develop the ears for it.

While I appreciate the popularity of it, please dump the chart, people :o. No chart in the world can tell you what any given track actually needs; only the track itself can tell you that.

There's one useful lesson that one should be able to get from look at that chart, though; that music is almost ALL overlap, that the idea of slicing up the spectrum with EQ and dividing it between the different instruments is kind of ludicrous.

Yes, generally each instrument gets it's own general domain in a song, but that should be taken care of mostly by the arrangement, with *the arrangement* supported by the tracking first and the mixing second, not just a laying on of full-range tracks that are force-fit to certain frequency ranges by EQ in mixing; because as one can see in that chart, the instruments themselves are almost all overlap just by nature and do NOT occupy different parts of the spectrum on their own and cannot be forced to do so unless that is how the arrangement specifies their part in the song.

G.
 
Anybody worth their salt in music recording/production and with the ears required to truly do the task should have a need for that information that approaches zero.

There's the crux. An experienced engineer will be long past the need for visual aids. Not so much the novice.

... that the idea of slicing up the spectrum with EQ and dividing it between the different instruments is kind of ludicrous.

Funny you should mention this, as it's a point Izhaki makes in his chapter on equalizers that I've been mulling over quite a bit today. It gave me an idea for an A/B demonstration you may be interested in producing: First, mix an arrangement with the instruments tightly compartmentalized into separate bands. Then, mix the same arrangement with more natural overlapping of instruments. It could serve nicely as an example of "do" and "don't".
 
There's the crux. An experienced engineer will be long past the need for visual aids. Not so much the novice.
I don't see it that way at all, myself. It's not a question of visual aids as it is some stranger somewhere who has never heard the tracks you have in front of you trying to decide what they need and don't need without even listening to them or without even knowing what you want to eventually do with them. It's a silly idea. How could I, when I starting making that chart a few years ago, possibly have any inkling of what the tracks you have in front of you today sound like or even what you really wanted them to sound like? Without those two pieces of information, any advice that could possibly be gleamed from that chart would be worthless, except by random chance.

And whether one is a novice or an experienced pro is, IMHO, irrelevant in two main ways: first, the level of experience of the reader doesn't change the degree of truth, accuracy or relevance of the information in that chart. It will be equally as relevant or irrelevant *to the tracks at hand* regardless of who's doing the reading. The big catch is that the novice tends to blindly believe the chart more, meaning that it can do them far more harm than it can someone with the experience to know that the chart is not where it's at.

Second, regardless of one's experience, you gotta have or develop the ears fisrt. That is the #1 lesson that most don't want to accept. If you ain't got the ears, you might as well find yourself something else to do. Otherwise it's like a blind person trying to get into photography. There's absolutely no point in recording and mixing music if you don't have both the creative ear of a musician and the analytical ear of an engineer. I won't go into the first one, but the second one is something that can be taught and can be learned if one does not have it naturally, and it isn't that hard to learn.

But until one does have the ear, the rest is all completely useless; the arguments about charts, about acoustics, about gear, everything. You might as well just throw it all out if you don't first get the ear. One cannot mix or master without it, novice or not. And if you got the ear, you don't much need the chart.
Funny you should mention this, as it's a point Izhaki makes in his chapter on equalizers that I've been mulling over quite a bit today. It gave me an idea for an A/B demonstration you may be interested in producing: First, mix an arrangement with the instruments tightly compartmentalized into separate bands. Then, mix the same arrangement with more natural overlapping of instruments. It could serve nicely as an example of "do" and "don't".
Hmmm, it's an idea. I'll have to think about that. I'd probably more want to focus on the idea of how the arrangement itself should determine 90% of it, and how the mix and the EQ should be in support of the arrangement, but at the same time, I really don't want to get too heavily into the music composing and arranging theory side of things.

This is where things get tricky when it comes to teaching this stuff; in a very important way, the mixing of the music is really just an extension of the arrangement and the composition of the music, and it's hard to get into one without talking about the other, and the other should be relegated to music school, not recording school. But I'll think about it; I already have the seeds of some ideas starting to sprout.

G.
 
Blue Cat Frequency Analyzer.

Dear Everyone.

Just because a few showoff engineers can pinpoint the exact wavelength where two sounds overlap doesn't mean the rest of us can. I can tell if it's the 'low end' or the 'high end' that wants EQing, but as for which exact frequency i n KHz, forget it. That chart helps by showing the likely areas, but it's static. A frequency analyzer plug-in, on the other hand, is dynamic. It shows you in realtime where the overlaps are.

Why Blue Cat? First off, it's free. Good price! Secondly - you can make it TRANSPARENT! Which means you can put one instance on each instrument, overlay the windows and see EXACTLY where the overlaps are!! Dynamically.

Can't go wrong with that. OH - and Voxengo Curve EQ. Why that one? Infinite bands. Just add a blob for a new band.And it's parametric. Ultimate EQ'er is Voxengo Curve, shameless plug there. No, I don't work for either company!

Question for anyone who cares to answer. What the heck is PARAGRAPHIC EQ? Saw an ad. for a PARAGRAPHIC eq'er on a site, it was called Sir something-or-other, wish I could remember. What does PARAGRAPHIIC mean? Did they just mean parametric and mis-spell it?

Yours respectfully

Chrisulrich
 
As the author/builder of those charts, I have a pretty good idea what they contain ;) :D

A-hah! So it's you who made that chart! So cool! I saw that thing when I was first starting out, and it really helped me get a grasp on EQ. Thanks! :)
 
A frequency analyzer plug-in, on the other hand, is dynamic. It shows you in realtime where the overlaps are.
...
Can't go wrong with that.
Except for one thing; it doesn't tell you whether those "overlaps" are good or bad, or whether they are supposed to be there or not. There's plenty of "overlapping" that's not only appropriate, but necessary, and others that are optional but value judgments on the part of the engineer. An FFT analysis can do nothing to help in any of those cases, only one's ears and head can tell you that.

It's not "showing off" to be able to tell what you're listening to, it's necessary. Do you need to be able to bullseye every frequency within a couple of Hertz? No, of course not. But you gotta at least hear that there's something to try to bullseye, and not try to figure it out by sight.
Question for anyone who cares to answer. What the heck is PARAGRAPHIC EQ?
"Paragraphic" can mean a couple of different things, depending on who is using the term and how many needles their marketing department had in their arms when they decided to use the word.

It can mean an EQ that is a hybrid of a graphic EQ and a parametric EQ in some way; maybe only one or two of the three normally variable parametric parameters are actually variable, or maybe it's a full parametric, but uses sliders instead of knobs for the gain like a graphic EQ does.

It can also mean a multi-band/multi-filter EQ that uses a graphical frequency/gain display like an FFT analysis, except to show the overall EQ curve setting of the EQ.

And it can also unfortunately mean almost anything else the marketing department of the manufacturer wants it to mean.

G.
 
I was wondering if anyone could offer some rules of thumb for using EQ on instruments. For instance, on a previous project an engineer eq'd quite a bit of low end off piano,strings, guitrar,etc. The question in is what freqeuncies get rounded off on which instruments.

the guy probably did that because his recording was muddy to start with. If you record the stuff right, it won't need any eq. (just one man's opinion)
 
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