Routing and topology for 24 tracks...

[jpmorris]

Okay, I managed to acquire a recently-serviced MSR-24 which appears to be working, though without much tape, and with slight keystone wear on the head, I haven't been able to run a full test yet.

I am currently trying to figure out how best to integrate it into my setup, which currently consists of a 16-track desk and two synchronised TSR-8s.

The snag is, I want to keep one of the TSR-8s as part of the system, for simple songs that don't need that many tracks, and for vocals.
What I'm thinking of doing in the latter case is recording the body of the song to the MSR-24 and then bouncing a scratch track to the TSR-8. Then I can record the vocals over and over and over again - and keep some alternate takes - until I'm happy and then dump the vocals back to the 24-track for the final mix.

My current plan is to see if I can get hold of a relatively cheap and compact 20 or 24 channel mixer. One track is going to be timecode anyway, and this narrower format probably wants a guard track on 23, so I figure that 20 is okay - especially if I miss out the edge tracks.

Anyway, this introduces a little problem. How to monitor the TSR-8 and the MSR-24 at the same time? I don't think I can justify a 32-channel mixer, or fit it in the available space. I will need the ability to route the TSR-8 into the MSR-24 for bounces.

Current ideas are:

1. Have the TSR-8 permanently wired into the MSR's inputs. Things which get recorded to the MSR-24 pass through the TSR-8 in input monitor mode. Easiest with what I have, and extremely flexible. However, it does mean that everything passes through the TSR-8 which may add a few more op-amp stages to it (I'll have to check the card schematics to see how monitoring works).

2. Get a horrifically expensive and massive 32-channel deck. Route everything into the MSR-24 and somehow abuse the INSERT functionality in the mixer to allow inputs to be routed to the TSR-8 instead.

3. Build some switching boxes (e.g. with 4 stereo switches) to allow me to route the signals as needed. This will be a pain in the ass.

4. Mess around with patchbays constantly.

I dunno if anyone else has done this kind of thing. Any ideas?

Hmm, I should probably draw up a signal diagram of what I've got at the moment, since my explanation probably doesn't make sense

 

[jpmorris]

Here is a diagram of the existing setup:


(Bonus points if you can identify the synthesizers)

 

[sweetbeats]

I'd look into getting an 8 x 2 line mixer for monitoring and utilize patchbays. Keeps things flexible and at the same time averts the need for a 32 channel board. Though mixers like the M-520 and many others can work well with the inline monitoring through the aux buss but I get the feeling you'd not have what you need there. I'd think with the line mixer and normalling patchbay you'd have minimal futzing for the most oft used scenarios.

 

[Dr ZEE]

puzzling ..heh heh
got me thinking for a moment about what you practically can do, but I'm just going to share few thoughts, kind of useless and maybe too general

Some time while ago, don't recall exactly at what point, I have concluded to myself that a "permanent setup" is NOT the way to go. I had few of "those" in the past and sooner rather than later I always would came to the point of changing it... and then one day it just came to my mind: instead of chasing an "ultimate perfect universal and permanent setup" - keep everything available and easily accessible (or say exposed) with minimum of "permanent connections".

The concept may sound like a simple one, but it also requires some work to do.
I actually had to think through and "design" and build few special interconnection boxes , and it's all specific to a situation.

Patch field would do BUT , there's a big "BUT" here imho : patch field is actually a form of a "permanent setup" (as I see it) and everything is connected. You use the whole bunch of extra cables ... if you have bunch of gear - that's a huge LOT of extra cables. If you use all sorts of "strange" and vintage gear mixed with DIY and experimental stuff having all this crap permanently connected to a patch field - you are asking for trouble grhhhhhhhhhhhhh

The reason I am ranting about this is because what you are facing now reminded me some similar situatuations I had to deal with in the past. Got a new piece of gear and now have to fit it into my "damn permanent setup" - it's a headache, isn't it ?

OK, more specific "thoughts"....

I'd say, since you've got that "monstrous amount of tracks ...heh heh, and intend to use them all, then it's time to get 24/48 8-buss .... just do it. Well, it's not a cheap thing, but , hey ... it is what it is ,

You can try to work around, of course, I could think of couple ways ..maybe , but I'd say, sooner or later anyway you'll get to the point when you say : arghhhhhhhhhh screw it ... it's just too much pain in the ass to deal with and will get a console after all. So better do it now and start wasting energy on your "recordings" instead of on figuring things out... know what I mean?.
Sell some of you gear if you have to, to get a few extra EU-bucks ...heh heh , I bet you've got some stuff you don't use and don't need

.....
Your synth ...heh heh ..too funny
one is Waldorf Q ...you can't miss the big red...
the others - forget it .... no way in hell to know...the top one maybe an E-MU rack , they have lcd in the middle but that's just a guess ... LOL

later

 

[jpmorris]

I'd look into getting an 8 x 2 line mixer for monitoring and utilize patchbays. Keeps things flexible and at the same time averts the need for a 32 channel board. Though mixers like the M-520 and many others can work well with the inline monitoring through the aux buss but I get the feeling you'd not have what you need there. I'd think with the line mixer and normalling patchbay you'd have minimal futzing for the most oft used scenarios.

Normalling in patchbays is something I've not yet got my head around. Does that replicate the signal between the A and B outputs? The signal diagrams that came with the patchbay made things worse rather than helping.
If it can be set up to do signal replication then it may help because I could then feed one set into the MSR and one set into the mixer...

I do actually have a spare 8x2 mixer, but I'm running out of power points now (and space to put the thing on ;-) ). In fact I should probably try and measure how much current the studio is drawing at some point, just in case.

What I think I'll do for now is plug the TSR-8 into the MSR-8 and monitor via All-input or similar and think about a future solution later on in the year, once I've actually used the deck in anger.

Some time while ago, don't recall exactly at what point, I have concluded to myself that a "permanent setup" is NOT the way to go. I had few of "those" in the past and sooner rather than later I always would came to the point of changing it... and then one day it just came to my mind: instead of chasing an "ultimate perfect universal and permanent setup" - keep everything available and easily accessible (or say exposed) with minimum of "permanent connections".

Yeah, I'm not trying to eliminate patching entirely, nor could I if I wanted to. What I'm trying to figure out is how to set things up for the most common case so I can use it without having to rewire all 8 channels constantly throughout the session.

I'd say, since you've got that "monstrous amount of tracks ...heh heh, and intend to use them all, then it's time to get 24/48 8-buss .... just do it. Well, it's not a cheap thing, but , hey ... it is what it is ,

I am going to have to get a new desk at some point, later this year (or perhaps sooner if I manage to score a better paying job). But I think 24 channels is going to be the limit, realistically.

Your synth ...heh heh ..too funny
one is Waldorf Q ...you can't miss the big red...
the others - forget it .... no way in hell to know...the top one maybe an E-MU rack , they have lcd in the middle but that's just a guess ... LOL

It's a MicroWave, but close enough. The others are a Hammond module and a Cheetah (a company better known for making joysticks in the 8-bit era) and the Triton was kind of rushed.

 

[sweetbeats]

Normalling in patchbays is something I've not yet got my head around. Does that replicate the signal between the A and B outputs? The signal diagrams that came with the patchbay made things worse rather than helping.
If it can be set up to do signal replication then it may help because I could then feed one set into the MSR and one set into the mixer...

Yeah...I've had the same experience...it takes time to get my head around it. The way I think of the term "normalling" is simply "connected". An input that is normalled to an output means it is connected in the patchbay, but then depending on your patchbay you can "sniff" the input plugged into the back of the patchbay without interrupting the normalling by plugging a patch cable into the appropriate jack in the front, -OR- "break" the normalling by plugging up to the other jack in the front essentially disconnecting the normalling to the output jack in the back and re-routing the input to the patch cable you plugged into the front.

I use Neutrik NYS-SPPL TRS patchbays...the jack sets are on modules that can be flipped to accomodate a number of scenarios.

What kind of patchbay or patchbays do you have?

With some of the above features you certainly would be able to have one source normalled to one destination and "sniff" the source to another destination plugged into another input on the patchbay.

They are really handy problem solvers...flexible but in a way permanent too and can be reconfigured as your needs change.

Whether or not this will provide for your 16 channel mixer to act as a convenient audio hub I don't know. I went through some of the same sort of deliberation with my prototype 12 x 8 Tascam M-500 series mixer related to interfacing a 16 track tape machine and decided on a bigger mixer. With the MSR-24 and TSR-8 you've got 32 tracks (30 less sync tracks) and am I correct that you have 16 tape in jacks and 16 line in jacks on the mixer? Wait...what kind of mixer is it?

 

[jpmorris]

Yeah...I've had the same experience...it takes time to get my head around it. The way I think of the term "normalling" is simply "connected". An input that is normalled to an output means it is connected in the patchbay, but then depending on your patchbay you can "sniff" the input plugged into the back of the patchbay without interrupting the normalling by plugging a patch cable into the appropriate jack in the front, -OR- "break" the normalling by plugging up to the other jack in the front essentially disconnecting the normalling to the output jack in the back and re-routing the input to the patch cable you plugged into the front.

I think I see - I'll have to play around with it.

I use Neutrik NYS-SPPL TRS patchbays...the jack sets are on modules that can be flipped to accomodate a number of scenarios. What kind of patchbay or patchbays do you have?

In actual fact, a Neutrik NYS-SPP-L1. It looks like the manual was written for someone used to using them - I bought it a month or so back when I first seriously considered getting an MSR or MS16.

With the MSR-24 and TSR-8 you've got 32 tracks (30 less sync tracks) and am I correct that you have 16 tape in jacks and 16 line in jacks on the mixer? Wait...what kind of mixer is it?

I'm not really planning to use it in a 30-track configuration, probably more like 20-22 tracks. The plan is to track keyboards to the MSR-24, vocals to the TSR-8 (since it has the remote), and copy the best take(s) of the vocals to the MSR. I'd be mixing the projects on the MSR only because doing synced mixdowns is starting to get annoying.
So I don't need to hear both the MSR and the TSR at the same time, but I do need to switch between monitoring the TSR and monitoring the MSR with minimal fuss. Since I need to be able to bounce tracks to the MSR, the best approach is probably to simply listen to the TSR through the MSR's input monitoring.

The current mixer is a Yamaha MG16-4.

 

[sweetbeats]

If you're only planning on using 20 to 22 tracks, then why can't you just use the MSR-24? I think you addressed that earlier in the thread so I apologize for bringing it up...does it have to do with capturing certain sources on the wider 1/2" 8-track format rather than the 1" 24-track? I'm just wondering about generational loss in the transfer, and if it is ending up on the MSR anyway...I can see using the TSR as a tracking tool in this way if you were sync'ing the TSR and MSR and transferring to a DAW and mixing from there... :???:

I'll read the manual for the MG16-4...

 

[Beck]

A full-featured 4-buss (or more-buss) submixer is a good option as well. That’s probably the most common solution in this type of setup. I don’t know much about your Yamaha console, except that it’s 4-buss. Hopefully it’s got buss inputs. You can add a 20 to 24-channel board for the MSR-24. I work this way in my studio… a main console for instrument inputs and a separate 8-channel mixer for my TSR-8. The 8 inputs from my DAW use 8 tape inputs on the main console. The tricky part for you will be deciding how to use the busses with that many tracks and you’ll probably want to have the capability to switch them… either a patchbay or a DIY switching matrix of some kind. 4-buss is a little shy for that many tracks. You can do it, but I’d be more comfortable with at least 8-buss. I also use an 8-channel submixer for effects processor returns and another for a keyboard/synth module submixer. Those are both Tascam M-1B’s.

 

[jpmorris]

If you're only planning on using 20 to 22 tracks, then why can't you just use the MSR-24? I think you addressed that earlier in the thread so I apologize for bringing it up...does it have to do with capturing certain sources on the wider 1/2" 8-track format rather than the 1" 24-track?

That's part of it, yes. The main concern is that I end up re-recording vocal takes over and over again until I get it right which means lots and lots of passes. For that I'd rather the wear went onto the TSR-8's head because they are cheaper and more numerous than the MSR-24 head (and I have a bunch of spare TSR-8 heads too).
Related to this is that if the RMGI sheds during this process, it's going to cause less problems on the wider TSR-8 tracks than it will on the MSR24.

Another factor is that I don't have the remote for the MSR-24, but I do for the TSR-8. While I could at a pinch live without it, or maybe even build a suitable device using the parallel accessory port, the TSR-8 is set up for this right now.

And okay, maybe I also have a sentimental attachment to that TSR-8