roland vs880 users

[periscope]

i have been recording for awhile now i have a pretty basic 8 trk analog setup ive just purchased a roland vs880 v expanded model off ebay for an incredible price ive been wanting to try this digital thing for awhile ive got the recorder now can anyone tell me what else im gonna need to mke my setup complete ive heard this is not a plug in play machine so im wondering what else im gonna need to use this machine so if any one could tell me how they set theres up or how they utilize it i would be very appreciative to them ive heard this is a pretty awesome machine though i can hardly wait to give it a test run thanks alot to all who help me out on this one

 

[geekgurl]

Hey Peri:

Welcome to the VS world ... as far as the machine not being "plug and play," I don't know why not. I mean, if you have instruments and the standard 1/4" instrument cables, you plug those in and record. If you have a dynamic mic, you can get one of those Radio Shack Hi-Z/LoZ adapters (that changes mic cords from 3 prongs to 1/4" plug) and plug that in and use it.

If you want to use condenser mics (generally think of them as higher quality and quieter mics that pick up more detail), then you'll need a preamp to get phantom power).

And you're definitely gonna want a backup solution. I happen to use a SCSI MO drive, which takes either 230MB or 540MB disks. It's great because I can write and rewrite over these disks indefinitely (unlike a CDR).

Maybe the reference to "not plug and play" is because it takes some know-how to get around in the unit. This is true. I hope you have a manual. If not, check out www.vsplanet.com and do a search for "user's manual" because either Dan Barnes or Steve Phillips wrote a manua that's supposed to be easier to read than Roland's stock manual. That BBS is a good source anyway.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[periscope]

thanks

thanks geekgurl im new to this i understand how it works but need some hands on on this machine i have a mackie analog powered mixer tons of different mikes im capaable of running phantom power to my condensers got the phones and all the little nic knacks i was just wondering if i was gonna rip my hair out trying to figure out this machine its got manuals and all that stuff so i should be alright as far as the particular machine has the hard drive in it is that what you refer to as the backup or is this somthing i need to look into more another question i have is after i get thruogh with a project on this machine is it possible to hook it up to a computer and burn a cd i know roland makes a burner but was just wondering if you could do this i guess i just need you to come to my house and show me some tricks thanks alot

 

[volltreffer]

High gg!

Still have your MO? i was kind of desperately looking for one as mine has only 230 MB... You're just too far away

Ciao

Axel

 

[geekgurl]

OK, some responses:

Hi Axel:

Nice to run into you over here around these parts!

Yes, I still have my MO. I have two, actually -- a 230 MB and a 640 MB one (but I can only use 540 or smaller disks because of the 880's 512KB/sector limitation unless I upgrade to use Roland's CDR, which from what I understand ain't worth it).

If you're ever going to be in sunny California you can look me up! I actually only use 230 MB disks, pretty much ...

*******

Hi Peri:

With your Mackie, manuals, and the VS unit I'd say you're ready to go. By your questions I sense you haven't played around with the machine yet, at least not significantly. I suggest just diving right in ... water's fine, I promise! It's actually really easy. All the inputs (1 thru 4) default to tracks 1 thru 4, so if you plug something in, say, input 1, then hit the "status" button until it's orange (to hear your source) or red (to hear source and arm it for recording), you're in business -- because after that recording is just like any ol' tape recorder. In editing and mixing, it does get more involved. But you've got the manual and now 2 great sources (here and VS planet), so I'm sure you'll be up and running in no time. I think if you get that "hands on" time you will see how easy it is.

As for backup, that refers to storage OUTSIDE the VS, in case something goes wrong with the internal hard drive. The old maxim "if it exists only in one place, it doesn't exist" certainly applies to anything computer-based (VS machine is just a dedicated computer, right?). I use a SCSI-based MO drive for this. They're sometimes hard to come by, but I'd actually sell my 230MB one cheap (like $40 or something). You in San Francisco area ever, by any chance?

You can also go the Roland burner route, but they're expensive for what they do and I understand extremely slow. Some people use Plextor drives, but since I don't use one I can't comment. That may require you to upgrade your 880's OS (you'd go to Roland's site for this download).

As far as getting stuff into the computer, you can do this 2 ways:

1. as data
2. as audio

I only transfer audio, 2 tracks at a time via SPDIF into my Echo Gina soundcard. Keeps everything digital. If you want to do a mix of all 8 active tracks, you can do that too. SPDIF is a stereo format.

To transfer as data, there's some program name VS Transfer. I don't know much about it b/c I don't use it. Again, search here for that and at VS Planet.

Hope this gets you on your way.

One other thing: if high quality is important to you, I'd record in MAS mode only, at 44.1 KHz. Don't bother with 48KHz. The conversion to get it down to 44.1 to go on CD loses any quality gains anyway, I've found. MAS mode is audibly better quality than MT1, but then you only get to use 6 tracks. But you can bounce down with impunity. It all depends on your priorities.

Peace out,

gg

 

[TexRoadkill]

Periscope,
Welcome to the BBS. I would like to introduce you to my friends the 'period' and the 'paragraph'. They are usefull devices for making your posts more coherent and easy to read for us old stoners

 

[Mr Martin]

Check out "JW's VS Guide"

http://www.storm.ca/~stevemp/vs_guide.pdf

It's a big file, but worth the download.

 

[volltreffer]

High gg!

I'm just wondering have you ever tried to use the vs2wav utility ? It is a program that will only work for MAS mode recordings and will convert all takes from your songs... It only works with external disks (like MO ) I haven't yet used it as I'm too lazy to record in MAS and bounce like hell...
But anyone who wishes to use it: be careful! When using it whith '95 or '98 you have to use something from the vsrepkit to avoid the puter destroying your disk...

I have just once been to San Francisco (for a week) and I liked it VERY much! I lived at a friend of mine in Palo Alto - also lovely there... Stanford... I somehow have not managed it to move over there. Always wanted to do a postdoc at Stanford something with Genetic Programming as I did that a lot...

Your hint with the 540M was quite valuable for me, as I didn't get any info from which size on the blocks get bigger, thanks!

BTW there is another way of transferring the sound: burning it to CD using the vs burner. I have never done it as the burner is approx a 0,1x burner (if you measure resulting speed). Well OK, I use a very old JVC one. If you are looking for the older models that ou can use, there is a mail in the yahoo group on 840_880_1680 or whatever is its name. There are some JVC, some TEAC I think and the plextors. Some of the older ones xou can get real cheap on ebay or so. Mount it into a scsi case (from ebay or so) and you have a cheap burner. For backups it is quite nice (even if it's only because it is easier to store the cds ), but also very slow. The only advantage in burning to multiple 'songs' that I could imagine is just the fact that they should be EXACTLY in sync without further messing around. (I have NOT tried this, but it seems rather obbvious to me as the transfer is just done algorithmic). That way you should just be able to transfer multiple tracks holding the same sound without getting phase problems...


Ciao

Axel

 

[periscope]

Well I got my machine,I think its pretty awesome.Mixing and editing is a little complicated but i think ill get thruogh it.Ihave a ? though,my machine has the stock hard drive in it,is this disk removable or what i couldnt find anything in the manual about it

 

[wascal]

wow a real girl in here!!! amazing!!! i will try to watch my language damnit!!!!

what did you pay for the vs880ex there periscope???? i have one that i might want to dump but im using it to make practice loop chord progressions.

i would be embarassed to admit the mountain of dough i paid for the POS oh well at the time there wasnt much choice it was either that or fostex (yucko).

if its only a few hundred bucks i will keep mine and use it to make my loops!

 

[Fred Gosbee]

VS 880 experiences

Hi, folks. I have had a VS880 since they were new. I upgraded it to version 3.1 so I could get the CD burner so technically it's now a VS880EX. I have recorded 7 CDs on the thing and have the following thoughts.

Manuals: The original manuals suck. There are three volumes without a decent index and poorly translated into (American) English. If there is indeed an aftermarket manual available, I'd check it out.

Outboard equipments: If you are doing anything delicate, classic guitar or Celtic harp, for example, you've got to get decent mics and a quality preamp. The Roland preamps are noisy for this sort of thing. In my setup I have a Bellari tube preamp, which I also use for premastering, a compressor, a graphic eq. Theoretically you can use the eq and compressor which reside in the VS880 but it's a lot easier to patch in externals than to deal with stepping through the menus on the LED screen.

CD burner. I'd get one. It is a lot easier and reliable to back up data to the CD burner than to a DAT tape. Backing up to a computer disc means you have two volitile storage. CDR is a permanent storage media (you don't have to worry about magnets or inadvertantly erasing it) If you want to burn full length audio CDs you will also need some more outboard memory. I use a JAZ drive which is pretty shakey and often causes me to cast aspersions on the ancestry of the inventor and/or manufacturer. You can burn your songs one at a ime if you choose the "write w/o finalize option)

Recording in MAS mode. Be careful with this one. If you have too many edits or automix commands it will overload the processor and the sound will break up severly until it catches up.

My basic routine is to record the tracks, edit and mix the usual way. For premastering I run the mix to a DAT recorder through the Belarri preamp (it has pads so it will operate at line levels) using the analog inputs. This allows me to reduce some of the digital harshness that can sometimes creep in and, more imporantly, it gives me a good means of setting levels. The DAT has a peak meter and overload meter that are a lot easier to read than the LED screen on the VS880.

In the beginning we went from that straight to manufacture but for our last 4 or 5 projects we have been mastering a Northeast Digital

Our genre is folk/Celtic and we have recorded 4 CDs of a 6 CD set of Celtic Consort music (harp, fiddle, flute, cello and various other acoustic instruments). Sometime we add a vocal "wash" for some tunes. I have sucessfully (with careful use of submixes) used up to 34 tracks. The cool thing is, if you keep good records, you can go back into the submix to make adjustments. This is not the driving fiddle tunes but more aires and waltzes so there is wide dynamic range and a lot of quiet stuff. The VS880 has work well, seldom locks up, although it WILL if you are in an edit mode and hit the buttons too fast. When that happens you have to power down and will lose any work since your last save.

I am thinking of upgrading to a 24-bit machine for more headroom (and more tracks). Any thought about that?

 

[geekgurl]

Re: VS 880 experiences

Hi Wascal:

wow a real girl in here!!! amazing!!! i will try to watch my language damnit!!!!

I'm assuming you mean me ... if so, aaahh hell, don't worry about it. My mom's always told me I have a mouth like a truck driver. As for your considering dumping your VS, I have the 880vx and I don't think I'm dumping it anytime soon because it's a great scratch pad (I no longer own a 4-tr cassette for this purpose) and it's usable for "in-the-field" recordings, especially b/c I use an outboard 2-ch 24-bit converter (the Mindprint DI Port) to get higher quality preamp + A/D conversion on at least 2 channels.

The preamps in the VS are generally crapola, I think. I mean, Peri, if you have nothing else you can use them, but as your ears get more discriminating and your projects more crucial, you'll want to upgrade.

Speaking of which ....

Hi, folks. I have had a VS880 since they were new. I upgraded it to version 3.1 so I could get the CD burner so technically it's now a VS880EX. I have recorded 7 CDs on the thing and have the following thoughts.

Does the VS880ex have the MTK? That'd be the biggest selling point of upgrading from a VX for me. I know that's in the 1680.

I am thinking of upgrading to a 24-bit machine for more headroom (and more tracks). Any thought about that?

Well, I know that even just going thru my DI Port gets me better signals, even though the data is stored in the VS at 16 bit or whatever ... doesn't seem to be any of the harshness of truncation errors, BUT, using the same converter and going into a 24-bit Pro Tools Free session does in fact sound better ... more space between instruments, less muddy.

The Roland 24-bit modes are compressed, based on my understanding, and I don't know how (or if) that affects the sound.

My decision is, I'm going to move to a Digi 001; I need at least 4 inputs (preferably 6) for some things and I can get around in Pro Tools acceptably (before I used Free on my machine I used LE a little bit on my friend's MBox and on another Digi 001). Also, I take some of my sessions to a Pro Tools TDM (the high-end) studio so the idea of schlepping back and forth SESSIONS instead of a bunch of WAV files appeals to me.

I for one am therefore upgrading in this fashion.

But apparently, one doesn't need to abandon the VS studios in order to get pro quality. Did you all see the thread, something like "Can I get pro quality with my 1680" (it should be just a little below this one as of 6-10-02)? Seems ya can; in that thread there's a link to a Mars Music Web article, a Q&A with Roland's Laura Tyson, where she says that many "pro" releases have been tracked on 1680s ... including Victor Wooten's Grammy-winning release.

So, there's some more thoughts. Sorry about the long-winded post. I must like to hear myself write.

 

[wascal]

no prob there gg we enjoy your ramblings even if we dont understand all of them.

the preamps on my thing are bad - really noisy - if you want to see how noisy they are then turn them all the way up and listen for the hissing. i would think roland would have improved them by now but i dont know....

when i got mine they were still selling the original version and this dude at the store let me take one home and then trade it back as soon as they got the "V-xpanded" version. it was a bigger drive and more effects and such.

the sound to me is great but the machine is eccentric. too many menus and submenus and multipurpose buttons too much waiting when you turn it on and want to turn it off. little tiny screen.

i just got the akai dps16 after much research. i only paid half as much as for the vs880. it turns right on and off and has a big display that tilts and has knob controls on it even a contrast knob right on it!

i have an art tube mp preamp that works really well on my keyboard sound module. warms things up real nice.

presonus blue tube dual preamp for bass cab mic and guitar cab mic.

mackie 1202 vlz mixer with 4 of their great preamps.

i use real drums! no sequencers! all "live"! all me!

i am lazy so i run everything through the mixer panned hard left and then through a single channel of:

art tube levelar
behringer autocom pro
bbe sonic maximizer
behringer ultrafex pro

and then i just move the cable from input to input on my akai digital personal studio. i have all my effects set lightly and just leave the same settings for everything.

i get a sound thats better than what i hear on commercial compact discs and i think there are a few logical reasons for this. they use too much EQ and too much compression so things dont sound natural.

whats mtk and di port? what do you use pro tools for? is there mastering software in that? i use soundforge xp. i got it for 35$.

i am very happy with my setup now! i am now the weakest link! all i have to do is get my act together! my next upgrade is to my vocal and vocal mic techniques!

 

[geekgurl]

Hi Wascal:

I know what you mean about the quirkiness of the VS machines. You can definitely get the job done, but lots of menus. Auto-mix was painful compared to in Pro Tools or anything computer-related with full screen.

I use Pro Tools for tracking. Right now I use PT in this way: I transfer VS tracks to separate tracks or submixes via SPDIF. I use PT's EQ, dither, and delay. I guess you could say this is what I'm using for "mastering" (but I don't call anything I finalize at home "mastering" but for demos, what the hell, it's good enough). Since I'm using the Free version, it doesn't have reverb ... but the EQ and other effects (delay, etc.) sound much better -- more refined -- than the Roland. Must have finer processing bit resolution, even though Roland says its mixer section processes at 24 bit. Also, the automation functions are easier than on the VS. More powerful too.

Tomorrow I'm picking up a used Digi 001 Factory ... I'm hella excited about this. See, the Free version is highly limited and designed to get people hooked on PT (of course the PC version is very buggy and unstable so probably has had the opposite effect); but I knew how to use PT before Free came along anyway. I also am recording parts of certain sessions at a professional Pro Tools studio with a killer grand piano and bringing those tracks back to add onto at home.

With the Digi, I can record, theoretically, 24 tracks of input at one time. Of course, the Digi allows "only" 18 inputs max. I don't need all that -- 8 of those are lightpipe anyway and I don't have an ADAT -- but I WILL be using up to 6 for sure, maybe even up to 10. I could've gone the Delta 1010 route, but then I'd need to purchase software and hopefully not end up with something that didn't piss me off (I've been doing research and there's compatiblity issues and features/cost tradeoffs I didn't want to make) -- so I'd be looking spending at LEAST what I'm getting this Factory for used. And that wouldn't include decent plugins but Factory comes with high-quality compressor, reverb, peak limiter, EQ, and soft synth plug-ins. Oh yeah ... I'm set.

For the most part I just write/sing/play everything, much like you do, only I hire in a kit drummer (I do play djembe and other hand drums ... I know the traditional rhythms, so I don't usually just bang on them like a f*ckin' fool). I never really spent the time on drums, don't own any, and know so many drummers that I can't be bothered to do it myself. But I also am in a Latin Rock band and we're a fairly big (5 to 7 members any given day), groove-intensive band. I'm going to be recording our debut CD as well, so that's why I wanted the additional inputs. Tracking that kind of thing one or two instruments at a time is tedious and kills the improvisation and groove that band excels at.

The DI Port is a 2-channel preamp + AD/DA converter. Higher quality converters than Roland's. Much better preamp, huge dynamic range that stays fairly quiet through much of the boost range. I do believe I'll continue to use this with the Digi, through its SPDIF port.

I have a BlueTube I'm trying to sell. I have a racked Neve so if I want color that's pretty much what I turn to. I use the DI port for clean gain. It's very good for that. My friend has a Digi MBox, with the pres based on Focusrite's Green series, and I have to say those have more of a distinct boost in the high end ... I kinda don't like it though, because it sounds thin ... much less bass/bottom end than the DI. The DI, imho, is every bit as detailed, just not hyped in the highs; it's more balanced.

So that's answers to your questions and my life story, all rolled into one post. Lucky you. OK. Enough outta me, now. Sheesh.

 

[geekgurl]

Peri,

Sorry I hijacked this thread ... just consider info in my ramblings to be there for future edification, one person's account of how and why they outgrew the VS 880 and how and why they moved to another format.

Peace out,

gg

 

[wascal]

gg you are lucky living in sf there are so many musicians around there and they are not very stuck up like around la and other cities ive been. im sure you can find lots of used equipment there too for good prices.

i used to live in sunnyvale so ive been to sf many times and i always found ppls to jam with real easily around there.

do you go to the beach by golden gate park where you look up and theres the bridge? ha ha ha you have to follow along a path until you can run down the cliff? you know that beach?

i am stuck in the middle of nowhere in ohio but its ok cause theres nothing to do so i have a lot of time to play and record and get better. i have a slew of instructional videos for everything from vocals to drums guitars bass percussion banjo mandolin violin keyboards etc. i have a huge library of books and videos now.

ive been recording my singing every day now so im getting better. i work as a delivery driver and i sing in the car. i have vocal workouts and lessons on cassette and ive put in a lot of hours singing that way. i figure you just have to keep doing it and doing it over and over and you get stronger.

i used to have a 1967 ludwig black oyster drumset like ringo used when i lived in san diego but i couldnt play it cause of neighbors. now ive had my present set for about 5 yrs and i play every day. i can keep pretty good time now and ive learned all the rudiments and marching band and concert snare stuff. its much easier for me to just do my own drumming cause i hate loops and samples and im stuck in the middle of nowhere.

i use rode nt1s for my overheads!

you have a neve preamp???? eeek!!!!! gear snob!!!!!!!!

 

[geekgurl]

gg you are lucky living in sf there are so many musicians around there and they are not very stuck up like around la and other cities ive been. im sure you can find lots of used equipment there too for good prices.

i used to live in sunnyvale so ive been to sf many times and i always found ppls to jam with real easily around there.

do you go to the beach by golden gate park where you look up and theres the bridge? ha ha ha you have to follow along a path until you can run down the cliff? you know that beach?

Hehe, I don't live IN San Francisco proper ... like you formerly did, I live in the South Bay ... BUT I think I know that beach!! Did you ever walk or ride a bike across the bridge? Riding's awesome ... you have to get off you bike to go around the towers because of the strong winds, the venturi effect ... it would blow you across 2 lanes of traffic. My kinda fun.

I'm actually going up there tomorrow.


you have a neve preamp???? eeek!!!!! gear snob!!!!!!!!



Hardly. It's like having a prized Fabrege egg or something ... "What's a nice pre like you doing in a place like this?"

At least, not collecting dust! I like your discipline and method for improving your singing. I'm not a natural at it and I suck at it less now ... I sing a lot in the car too.

For Drum OHs I will be using mxl603s. They work great on upright piano and acoustic guitar. Last project I did with drums I used C1000s. I expect, just hearing the 603s on what I've done so far, I'll like these so much better.

How do you like your NT1s? have you had the oppty. to compare them as drum OHs with anything else?

Sorry, Peri!

 

[wascal]

i used 2 use an audio technica small diaphragm condenser for vocals and then i got the nt1 for vocals and put the at over the drums. i didnt like the nt1 for vocals as much as the at so i switched them. i have a low pitched voice and i think maybe small diaphragm vocal mic is best for me. in general small condenser is more accurate than large condenser and has less bass.

wow!!! the rode is fantastic up there! i will admit i only have one so i dont really have "overheads" ha ha ha. ive tried 2 but i like 1 better. if you have a small room like mine 1 is enough.

i used to wonder how gene krupa got such a full sound out of his snare and now i have that same sound. i recently changed to coated pinstripe heads (heavy) so that helped too. the balance between the cymbals and drums is too good to be true.

if i had access to lots more mics and pre's im sure i would find different combinations but i dont care. if you make a nice recording nobody will be able to tell what you used.

ive spent most of my music life trying to play melodic lead guitar like jimi hendrix robin trower santana etc.

now i am broadening my horizons because i want to make and sell cd's with an eye toward getting a recording contract with a big advance!

i never rode a bike or walked across the bridge but i rescued a lady who was running from a bunch of cholos in downtown sf and it turned out to be a transvestite! how embarrassing!

 

[geekgurl]

i never rode a bike or walked across the bridge but i rescued a lady who was running from a bunch of cholos in downtown sf and it turned out to be a transvestite! how embarrassing!

ROFLMAO!

That sounds so quintessentially SF!

Can you believe it was clear skies and like mid-80s up there today? As you know usually in summer you'd expect it to be freeeezing.

Because you have a low voice, have you considered the SP C1 or Mxl V67 large diaphragm condenser? In the mic forum seems ppl like those for male vox. You say s.d. condensers seem more accurate, but usually they're not the first choice for vox BECAUSE they're so accurate and on a tighter, smaller pattern. Generally less flattering for vox.

Of course, if it's a money thing you gotta do what works for now. I bet if you had one of those mics above with a Joe Meek pre you'd like what it did for vox.

Also consider that the NT1 can be hard to get a good vox tone with. I have an NT2 and love it, but it's a totally diff mic. Also, works great on my gurl voice and on the voice of our guitarist -- he's got a tenor-y voice, though, not bassy and boomy.

Like you said, though, if you get a good sound, no one cares what you used to do it, except for homereccer geeks, right?

 

[wascal]

yeah money is a prob cause i still owe some on my dps16 and the vg88 vguitar system i got to go with it.

i know i brag about using "real" stuff so why get a vguitar system? well... i dont know!

i think its different from having fake drums and direct injected bass. you can get natural sounds out of it.

plus i use a sound module for my keyboard but i mostly use piano and organ sounds anyways.

if i had a polished voice i would worry more about getting the nice mic but i still have a lot of work to do. if i can make what i have sound great then when i finally do get a great mic it will be all the better. right?

so where do you live? east palo alto? scary!

ha ha ha i never had much trouble around there but i would see the little gangsters hanging out on the sidewalks dressed in black. asian gangs. really funny miniature hoodlums. i guess you dont want to laugh at them cause they can be mean but they are the best gangs cause they only seem to bother each other.

yeah i like the weather in sf nice and cool. my studio is kinda hot and humid. i have to run a dehumidifier in the summer and that makes it hot in there. sweaty. oh well it takes less time to "warm up" that way!