Roland versus Kurzweil

  • Thread starter Thread starter darkecho
  • Start date Start date
D

darkecho

New member
Ok so I need a good keyboard with excellent voices for symphonic black metal and some classical/baroque style stuff I am doing. I played the fantom today at the local guitar center and it has AWESOME sounds, the cello and harpsichord were excellent, and the weight of the keys was excellent, it was like a good weight for me, light but realistic feeling... anyways i was extremely impressed but the x8 model i want is about 3 grand...

i was also looking at the kurz k2600 but havent had a chance to check it out i person, does it sound as good/better than the fantom? I know it has the ability to destroy sounds with its VAST system but i honestly probably wont use that in the near future. what do you guys think?
 
Well, anyone that has read my posts here knows how passionate I am about Kurzweil... maybe to the point of being annoying :p

However, if you don't picture yourself going deep with the K2600, putting the time to learn it (I've had mine for about 6 years and I'm still learning new things BTW), I'll say you'll be wasting your money, even though the current models being sold in the USA include the Contemporary and Orchestral ROM blocks. I don't have either as I don't have use for them, but I've tried them out and the orchestral sounds on the Orchestral block are really good.

If deep programming is not your thing, you might be better off with the Fantom or Motif, or Kurzweil PC2 with Orchestral block.
 
Agreed

Like Noisewreck, I too am a Kurzweil owner who swears by it, but have to tell realistically tell people: "It's a DEEEEEEEEEEP instrument that will have you awed for years."

The good news is too lengthy to write about here, except for one important point for you - you can take the Kurzweil K2600 out of its box and begin playing it immediately, and changing program sounds is simple. If you have the desire to build or change sounds, actually fairly easy, but you'll want to read through the 2 or 3 owner's manuals, many times, which, by the way, are extremely excellent, well-written and indexed.

IF you are going to want to add sounds, then you definitely want the Sample version, noted with a "S" after the model number - i.e. K2600S

-------

But if you don't want to drop close to $4,000 on a the best workstation... look at the Motif, Tritons, etc.

Motif, by the way, is a dog at sequencing, according to my friend who owns one. Just not very well thought out in its logic. Nonetheless, the sounds are very good.

I liked the Triton Extreme when I visit stores, because of its presets. I think it might be fun to program, too.

But for piano reality, the Kurzweil is the one to own, bar none. But you won't get it without a killer sample, which you will need to buy additionally. Sweetwater's Ultimate Grand v.3 is the one to get, and it's cheap now - $100.

You won't get piano reality, mind you, like I am describing, on any of the machines you have read about. That means you will have to buy a board that allows you to upload the sample to RAM. You will have to buy a separate sample CD from somebody. I don't care what anybody says to the contrary.
 
I will agree on the above comments. In fact, I have BOTH a k2500r and a K2600r.

I would add that the triple strike piano rom will do people fine for pianos. If that doesn't make one happy, then no stock samples in any board or rom are going to make you happy, and you'll have to go the mega-sample CD/DVD route as mentioned above.

Here are some samples:
http://kurzweilmusicsystems.com/downloads.html?Id=1709


Toddskins said:
Like Noisewreck, I too am a Kurzweil owner who swears by it, but have to tell realistically tell people: "It's a DEEEEEEEEEEP instrument that will have you awed for years."

The good news is too lengthy to write about here, except for one important point for you - you can take the Kurzweil K2600 out of its box and begin playing it immediately, and changing program sounds is simple. If you have the desire to build or change sounds, actually fairly easy, but you'll want to read through the 2 or 3 owner's manuals, many times, which, by the way, are extremely excellent, well-written and indexed.

IF you are going to want to add sounds, then you definitely want the Sample version, noted with a "S" after the model number - i.e. K2600S

-------

But if you don't want to drop close to $4,000 on a the best workstation... look at the Motif, Tritons, etc.

Motif, by the way, is a dog at sequencing, according to my friend who owns one. Just not very well thought out in its logic. Nonetheless, the sounds are very good.

I liked the Triton Extreme when I visit stores, because of its presets. I think it might be fun to program, too.

But for piano reality, the Kurzweil is the one to own, bar none. But you won't get it without a killer sample, which you will need to buy additionally. Sweetwater's Ultimate Grand v.3 is the one to get, and it's cheap now - $100.

You won't get piano reality, mind you, like I am describing, on any of the machines you have read about. That means you will have to buy a board that allows you to upload the sample to RAM. You will have to buy a separate sample CD from somebody. I don't care what anybody says to the contrary.
Click to expand...
 
hmm... Well one thing that I am sort of worried about is how I am going to be able to sit down and try out the kurzy myself since I havent seen one here locally anywhere.. i loved the feel of the fantom, I want weighted keys, but not to the point where it will hinder me playing synth solos and the like... I dont know how much i am going to want to reprogram sounds, I would rather have a keyboard that I can upload different sounds into that I can play, for instance in the future if a better orchestra sound comes out I definately want to be able to utilize it as a voice, so thats what the Sampling part of these keyboard does? I dont care much about changing the voices once i get them, but I want to be able to get new voices on occasion.. other than that, I am not that picky about realism, I just want it to fool most people. everyone knows its a keyboard playing the strings and stuff, maybe not from the voice but just the fact that its a band.. so Im not trying to actually fool anyone, i just want it to sound good and full. and as realistic as possible..

I definately want the whole 88 keys and lightly weighted, the fantom felt the best of all ive tried so far but i havent tried the kurzweil.

It sounds and looks liek a great keyboard but I dont want to spend more than 3 grand. and I really dont think I need the complex vast system to edit sounds on my keyboard, I would actually rather modify/edit sounds on a computer program and then upload them into my keyboard if that is possible (sampling?)
 
Well then, I'd say the Kurzweil isn't for you. The stock presets aren't anything to write home about, although there is the Best of VAST object set that you can download (for free) and install it instead of the stock one with a different set of presets. There are a lot of 3rd party sound libraries around for it as well... notably Pyramid Sound, Sonic Implants, Ksounds, DLN, etc. The weighted action is very good. Also, you don't need the sampling option to load samples, just sample RAM. You need the sampling option for sampling directly into the instrument and external audio input (Live Mode).

But like I said, if you're interested in more of a plug and play instrument, then go for something else... VAST is a sound designer/sound programmer's environment, and if you don't take advantage of it it's kinda like getting a Ferrari to stroll around at 20MPH to go grociery shopping.

Anyways, if you want to get an idea why I love the K2600 and a deeper understanding of VAST, read my review at industrial (dawt) org.
 
i checked out the roland fantom and the motif today again.. I liked the action of the fantom better than the motif, and it seems like the fantom has more sounds.. Maybe i just couldnt figure it out... it seemed like it had 3 string voices where the fantom had like 20...

anyways, what do you guys think, has anyone else compared the fantom/motif/triton/2600?
 
darkecho said:
Ok so I need a good keyboard with excellent voices for symphonic black metal and some classical/baroque style stuff I am doing. I played the fantom today at the local guitar center and it has AWESOME sounds, the cello and harpsichord were
Click to expand...

I always loved Kurzweil~Piano and a few years ago I would recommend the same.

But players changed their position and lets be honest, nothing instrumental has been (sadly) changed with Kurzweil. I have both Micro Piano, PC2R and no longer K2500, but truth be told, FANTOM X-8 is exquisite instrument.

In fact, its piano moved me more the those found in Oasys while I was checking both at Frankfurt two years ago. Friend has purchased the X8 and I can only say it has everything.

Only thing I would like to see with this sort of associated power would be another 16 midi channels and more outputs. Piano can almost match RD700SX, probably the most refined sample of piano today. I suppose that would be partly debatable only with Promega 3, but... another story.

I found that Motif has slightly finer keyboard, but this be really personal observation and preference.

But for the value, FANTOM X-8 really is full creation instrument with everything you need. I can hardly see for any composer that Fantom would be obsolete anytime soon.

Even most of the dealers would tell you today that Kurzweil is overpriced considering its age of present offer. I love Kurzweil, I love designing sounds with the same, but I always felt "Workstation" is something I can hardly associate with K series. 48 voices in 2006 is really not something to sing a praise, and those machine still cost way too much considering the competition.

Look at the Fantom as long term investment and you will postpone any dilemma… fantastic sounds, great expandability.

Checked everything available and presently, if you are going to use one instrument , one workstation, Fantom would be the one to choose.

You should also check MusicPlayer many owners and people who compared Fantom with other available machines came to the same conclusion.

If you only chase perfect sounds and you only need playing keyboard, then you should immediately check RD700SX.

The only thing that will remain in your mind would be to locate the space for your new instrument :)
 
wow thanks a lot!!!

Yeah I have been researching more and more about the fantom and I havent come across anything yet that upset me one bit..

I decided to make a list of criteria I need for the keyboard and then I will use that to decide. here it is:

1. Must have enjoyable action (personal preference, fantom I like the most so far)
2. Must have realistic sounds throughout
3. Needs to be able to have new sounds imported (not just expansion card sounds, but say if i recorded a frog "rrrribbit" and wanted to turn that into a voice that can be played with the keyboard at different pitches and what not)
4. I need some sort of fast-switching capability so that while playing live, i can assign voices to buttons and be able to switch quickly. I havent quite figured out if the fantom can do this.

Thanks again everyone!!
 
I owned a Kurzweil 2600 for about a month. I thought the sounds were exceptional but the programming was too intense for me. IMHO Kurzweil should have developed a editor program for this keyboard. Editing from a computer is 100 times easier then doing it on that keyboard.

The factory presets just sucked. I think for those that like that kind of deep programming, the Kurzweil is a great choice.

I ended up purchasing a Korg PA1XPro Arranger keyboard. I think the sounds are really great and the programming is simple and the manual is well written.
 
yeah

sajs said:
I owned a Kurzweil 2600 for about a month. I thought the sounds were exceptional but the programming was too intense for me. IMHO Kurzweil should have developed a editor program for this keyboard. Editing from a computer is 100 times easier then doing it on that keyboard.

The factory presets just sucked. I think for those that like that kind of deep programming, the Kurzweil is a great choice.

I ended up purchasing a Korg PA1XPro Arranger keyboard. I think the sounds are really great and the programming is simple and the manual is well written.
Click to expand...

Actually, I rather agree with you about all of what you just wrote. I do not like the presets that much, it is way overpriced considering the hardware you are getting, I also hate that it is only 48 voices, and totally agree that a Windows Editor should have been provided (although there is one you can buy from I forget who...).

All very legitimate gripes.

Kurzweil's site has had no changes for a few years. I just checked last week and there is a Press Release they just made that suggests they are going to be releasing something new later this year. We' shall see.

Todd
 
Personally I don't find editing the K2600 all that difficult. It's true it's deep and there are a lot of options, but everything is layed out logically and there are a lot of shortcuts to quickly get around... Having said that, 1 month is an extremely short period of time to give to this beast. Afterall it is not a simple subtractive synth or a VA :)

Toddskins: I rarely find the 48 voice polyphony limiting. It's just a numbers game, it looks good on paper. Don't forget that the polyphony numbers for the other workstations are bloated, specially when using stereo samples/sounds because unlike on the Kurzweil using stereo samples on other workstations halves the available polyphony. Same goes for the on board ROM samples... considering the limited synthesis abilities of everything else out there, they do need more basic waveforms to work with.

darkecho, sounds like your heart is set on the Fantom. From the description of what you're looking for, it would certainly fit the bill. Don't fret, go for it. You'll be very happy :)
 
I’m a Kurzweil fan form way back to the K250 days. The first Kurzweil I actually bought for my own studio was the 1000 PX+ expander module. Shortly after that I snagged a nice K1200 Pro 76 keyboard. The sounds knocked me out then, and even after all these years I prefer them to many new offerings from various companies.

Funny how this thread should come along about now, because my wife (a classically trained pianists, that plays professionally) and I were doing some A/B of various digital keyboards that we had access to. Each time she came back to the Pro 76 and said, “Well, if you want a real grand sound, then this is it.” (Nodding her head in approval as she played). She wasn't to keen on the action though.

She preferred the 76 even over a new Kurzweil. The pianos were different than the 76… maybe a little brighter, but less convincing.

Now Kurzweil has definitely arrived with the cathedral/church type organ sound – something I could never get on my old Pro 76 or anything else.

Even the organ sound on the home-market RG100 sounded smooth and huge – every bit as awesome as the Allen pipe organ in my old church. I’ve never found that sound anywhere until last week on the RG100. Pure window ratting power!

Anyway, we had the following in our test pool:

Yamaha Clavinova CVP something
Alesis QS7
Steinway & Sons Full Grand
Charles Walter upright
Yamaha Baby Grand
Kurzweil K1200 Pro 76
Kurweil K2000
Kurzweil RG100 88

Sorry nothing from Roland

The Yamaha Clavinova had the most authentic hammer action.
The Kurzweil K1200 Pro 76 had the best real piano sound of the electronic keyboards and even beat the Yamaha Baby Grand to our ears.

The kurzweil RG100 piano was brighter, but still sounded nice. It really took the prize for the pipe organ sound… you could wake the dead with that thing if you weren’t careful.

~Tim
:)
 
Last edited:
Piano on the Kurzweil K2500 or K2600

Beck,

It seems as though you have not yet the opportunity to hear fantastic piano on the Kurzweil K2500 or K2600, with Sweetwater's Engineers Sampling genius.

Sweetwater is far more than the largest music dealer in the USA, they have entire sections of their company dedicated to tech support, mix engineering and mastering, and sampling, and more.

The stock piano ROMs on the Kurzweil I am speaking of, are not close to what pianists (like myself) demand. And I bought my Kurzweil K2500XS for several reasons, but the piano realism was priority #1. It was NECESSARY to buy this Piano Sample. Check it out:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PianoCDv3/

The K2600XS is better than my K2500XS, and the price has come way down since I bought mine. Under $3,900 today. The action on my particular K2500XS is just staggering. I love it, even better than dedicated controllers. I've found, strangely enough, that not all Kurzweil K2500 or K2600's have the exact same feel.

And true pianists know this without even needing to discuss it, but let me say it anyway - No keyboard controller, including Kurzweil's, will ever match a true Grand piano. There are several tests, but at the very top of the list is, "How quickly does the key come back up ready to be struck again?"

I play Billy Joel's "Prelude to the Angry Young Man", as the ultimate test. You gotta drill the C note like a machine gun. My Kurzweil cannot do it. No electronic board can, I am sure. Not cleanly, anyways.

Oh! I almost forgot. The most important thing I wanted to say! - What makes the Sweetwater sample piano so phenomenal, is that their engineers did some amazing programming using the MOD Wheel to darken and lighten the sound (brightness). And they state, that it is not just simple opening and closing of the Filter. The programming goes deep into the aspects of the V.A.S.T technology to affect other parameters, including ambience and reverbs, too. Great, great, great!
 
Good review Toddster. Yes I agree, some of the stuff could be better integrated. To some extent that's a by-product of cramming things in the old K2000 UI to keep the backward compatibility going. This is why I wish that the new workstation that Kurzweil is rumoured to work on breaks from the old baggage.

Oh, and guess where my manuals are... yup... right on top of the instrument :D If for nothing more than when I read one of them, I invariably have one of those "duh" moments like "duh, why didn't I think of that before?" :D
 
thanks so much for all of the information everyone, I think I have decided to go with Roland this time. Every time i go into the guitarcenter I am impressed with that keyboard, and I think it will suit my needs just fine. One day I will get a chance to see the kurz in real life and fiddle with it to see what the fuss is all about. hahah thanks agian!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top