Rode NTK or?

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dobro

dobro

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Hi - I use a Rode NTK on vocals, guitar, flute - lotsa stuff and I'm really happy with it. The one problem I have with it is sibilance. This is usually only a problem when I get closer than about a foot. Okay, so now I sing a foot from the mic and the sibilance is much reduced. But I *like* getting right in close to the mic. I like to be able to sing a foot away, half a foot away, an inch away, depending on what's happening in the song, and how loud I'm singing, and what I want it to sound like.

So, I'm asking about a mic that sounds as good as the NTK, but which is more forgiving close up. I'm looking for the same sound (I'm really happy with the NTK's sound), but more versatility of use.

Anybody know of such a mic?

Related question: what about that sibilance anyway? Where's it coming from? Is it the mic? Do *all* mics tend to get more sibilant closer up? Or is it the combination of mic plus preamp I'm using (Mindprint Envoice)?
 
Sibilance comes from the singer. You can use a de-esser, but it's better to look at your mic technique. Soften you s's-Richie
 
I have heard the NTK described as neutral by some and bright by others. Both of these factors could play into your situation.

What other mics do you have? This could help us help you.

Beez
 
Maybe a darker mic. I know I sound like a broken record but an Octava MC-319 (Soundroom only:D ) is still one of my favorite vocal mics. Just an idea.
 
Unless your technique is VERY refined in regard to the way you produce "s" and "t" consonants, some kind of de-essing is probably always going to be needed to some degree. I even have to de-ess with my AKG Solidtube, and that mic is DEFINITELY not bright sounding. If you pinpoint the frequency range where your sibilants tend to live, you can tame it with frequency-specific compression. Or you can do it the hard way and draw dips in your volume automation curve (if you're mixing via computer) for each objectionably loud "s." I use the latter quite a bit...I find the results a little more transparent than heavy amounts of multiband compression.
 
Richard - I know that some people sing more sibilantly than others, but I also know that certain mic angles and distances from the mic increase or reduce my natural sibilance - that's mic position. I also know that certain mics boost particular parts of the frequency spectrum, and that it can make a sibilance problem worse. That's why I'm looking into a different mic, and that's why I'm interested in Track Rat's Oktava suggestion, for instance. I'd rather get a mic that sounds good than have to de-ess everything. But okay, I'll look into technique as well. How do you soften an 's'? It's tongue position, right?

And speaking of de-essing, I've never had much luck with my multiband compressor in that department - I just can't seem to find the frequency where the sibilance is occurring.

Beezoboy - I've got a Rode NT-1. It's darker, which is good for avoiding sibilance, but it doesn't *begin* to sound as nice as the NTK.

R Punk - thanks for the painstaking technique. I'll try it out. I don't mind a bit of work if it works. :)
 
The sibilance your hearing is the 4.7K bump the NTK mic has. If you move the mic above your mouth, at nose level and let your breath pass below the mic, you can sing close to it. Also, are you using a pop filter? I am right on my NTK with a pop filter and the bottom of the mic pointed right at my nose. This reduces the sibilance and gives you a nice tone.

Last, the mic may just not be tailored to your voice. I have found my cheap Marshall V67G produces results that rival the NTK when I don't want the sizzle of the NTK on a track. Depending on the key of the music, my voice can be louder around 4.7 and the extra bump the NTK has, does not always work.
 
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I got my NTK and had the same problem. If you sing on an axis to the side of the mic or above, it usually helps tame these problems. Like everyone else said, a de-esser will help, but that mic seems to have a thing with silibance. I have since gotten rid of mine and got a BLUE Dragonfly. The sound it much more smooth but with twice the pricetag.

Brandon
 
I think a CAD M-9 might give you a similar sound, but without as much high-end boost / sibilance issues.

Just a thought.

What you really need to do is pull out a spectrum analyzer and find out where your sibilant range is -- it's a little different for everyone. Then, the next time you shop around for a mic, check out the frequency response curves and avoid those with peaks in your sibilant range.

One more thing to think about is the Envoice. It's a great little box for the money, but it has an unusually high impedence figure. This can contribute to odd peaks in some people's sibilant ranges. Perhaps your NTK is a little more sensitive to loading than most. If that's the case, then a more modest load might be what it's looking for -- so what I'm thinking is that maybe in this instance the preamp might be a contributing factor. It might not, but there's always that possibility.
 
so what I'm thinking is that maybe in this instance the preamp might be a contributing factor.
Click to expand...


This is oh so true. My Focusrite Platinum Pro really gets the NTK sizzling in a not so good frequency range. This is because it already has a warm tube sound and the NTK is a tube mic. The match up is not always desirable.

I picked up a DMP3 which is very neutral sounding and it matches better to the NTK. Something like an RNP, Grace 101 something more transparent matches to the NTK better than a really warm sounding preamp.
 
Middleman, Chessrock, frist - these have been useful ideas.

I'll try the mic techniques mentioned, and I'll try turning down the tube in the Envoice. If that doesn't work, then it's gear-buying time instead.

I've always wanted to try a Grace. I've always wanted to try a Dragonfly. I've always wanted to spend hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars. (sigh)
 
Yo Dobro! How *do* you soften an "S", or any other consonant?
Write the song down, listen to your current track and highlight every place you get this sibilence. When you get to one of those spots, reduce your volume a little, and cut that "S" short. "Oh my God, I hear you saying. "I have to think about every word?"-YES.
That may be a pain in the ass, but so is buying mics and pres and de-esser programs because you hiss like a cobra. Technique is the first solution, and gear is the last resort. And unlike all that gear, what I suggest will cost you nothing and make you a better recording artist. Try it on just one song, and come back and tell me if it helped. Sibilence is something you make, and if you take control of your diction, you can stop sounds you don't like at the source by just not making them. So listen to the recording, and change the way you say the word. Good luck-Richie
 
some tricks, recomendations.

i went to GC and tried 8 or so different oktava 319s. i picked the one that was most forgiving to my sssesss. that way i turned the spotty manufacturing tolerences into an advantage. sort of a custom frequency curve.

the other trick is to try dynamic mics which tend not to react so harshly to silibants. any of the common ones should do pretty well, re20 sm7, 441, 421... etc.
 
hiya dobro - having used the NTK myself for several vocalists over the past couple years, i can suggest that you try using the mic off axis. this is a common trick to smooth out any mic that seems too strident for an application, and if you look at lots of studio photos, you will see many vocalists singing into mics that are aimed almost at the ground at their feet. using this method, you can still stay as tight on the mic as you are comfortable with, and control your top end by angling the mic downward little by little until you get the balance you want between edge and smoothness. btw, this is virtually essential technique when using most contemporary (read: hyped) mics on any sibilant source such as flute, picollo, trumpet, high strings, etc. i finally broke down and bought a pair of schoeps for classical instruments. the other thing you can try is to use a good tube compressor in the signal chain to round it off before hitting tape/HDD - that is another very common method in the studio, but admittedly expensive. good luck.
 
Aside of technique..{JNorman's idea} which could help and save you cash!!..The Baby Bottle works very well for excessivly silibant vocals..I have used it on a vocalist who has only recorded with 57's and 58's no matter what the studios have in there locker {like U47's ect.}because his excessive silibance..Also the BB Bottle was thru a Grace{ a Neve or knock off would have been better}To me and this is my opinion only all the Rode mics lean heavely on the brite side.Good luck

Don
 
On the 421 suggestion, watch out for the MKII model, I had one for a few years and it has a hyped high end compared to the others. Not the best for a sibilant singer IMHO.

Chris
 
Have you tried the pencil trick?

basically, put a pencil, or pen, or sharpie, or whatnot in front of the microphone, right on the grille, parallel with the mic body (this assumes, of course, a side address mic) and keep it there. I like using rubber bands to attach it.

Anyways, you should hear a clear reduction in sibilance. You can do this in conjunction with a pop filter if one or the other by itself doesn't seem to be doing enough of a job. (I like to use a pop filter simply because it provide a helpful reference point for the singer in terms of positioning. If the singer stays focused on position right up against the pop filter, he won't keep on going closer and further from the mic, turning his head into an out of control fader. :) )
 
Dont turn the tube knob on the envoice past 3 or you will get sibilance (and some 'tube' distortion).
Ive used the NTK with the RNP (into the envoice for compression) and have had remarkably little sibilance on a variety of singers. Including some collegey, new punk, adolescent, adnoidnal good charolette types who e n u n c i a t e every consssonant verry clearly.
Nothing like the NT2 which is sibilant even when not plugged in. :D
 
Even more good ideas! I'm grateful. Sometimes this place really shines. :)

Okay, so I'll work with the gear I've got and make it work the best I can with different technique, but I'm still taking notes about mics in case I can't make it work.

(dobro to wife: "Uh, I have to get a Blue mic and a Grace 101. The guys on the board told me so.")

BTW - hi, jnorman - good to see you back.

Jusum - that tip about the tube setting is invaluable. I usually have mine on 4. More tube is better, right? :D
 
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