Victory Pete
Banned
I have been looking for an electric 12 string, any thoughts on these?
Light
New member
God, I hate Ricks.
I don't know a single repair person who will not charge you close to double for any work done on a Rick. Not because we hate them, but because it takes twice as long to do anything you need to do on a Rick. Which is why we all hate them. I know a number of well known repair guys who simply will not work on anything made by Rickenbacker. They do something cool and unique which is hard to duplicate on any other instrument*, but they are some of the worst designed pieces of shit in the guitar world. EVERYTHING on them is badly designed, from the poorly made pickups, to the dumb fuck nut design, to that idiotic 12-string headstock, all the way to the fucked up truss rods that like to break about 10 times more often than any other guitar I can think of. And don't forget the junk 12-string bridges that don't intonate the octave strings separately (their are replacement bridges available for this). Just about the only good bit of design is that you can easily change those undersized POS truss rods, which is really good, since they break so often.
The sad truth is, it is really hard to find a really good 12-string electric, that has both the sound, playability, and a solid reliable design. Ricks move around too much, and Fender 12-string electrics have a insanely narrow neck (they are the same width at the nut as a Strat - 1 5/8" - which puts the strings way to close together; they should be at least 1 3/4", preferably 1 7/8"). The width at the bridge is too narrow as well, if you ask me. They should be at least a good 1/4" wider than they are. All of this is so that Fender doesn't have to use a different shaped heel on the necks, which would complicate their production situation. Ricks have the same nut width, so I guess that's another idiot piece of design. You would never see an acoustic 12 with a nut that narrow - at least not a well designed one.
Of course, because all of the production models have this idiot piece of design, it's impossible to find a bridge that has the right spacing. GRRR! It's one of the things that most makes me want to start making my own hardware - at least when I'm making a 12-string.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
*(Made bold because everyone always seems to miss that I said so when I get to the next bit)
I don't know a single repair person who will not charge you close to double for any work done on a Rick. Not because we hate them, but because it takes twice as long to do anything you need to do on a Rick. Which is why we all hate them. I know a number of well known repair guys who simply will not work on anything made by Rickenbacker. They do something cool and unique which is hard to duplicate on any other instrument*, but they are some of the worst designed pieces of shit in the guitar world. EVERYTHING on them is badly designed, from the poorly made pickups, to the dumb fuck nut design, to that idiotic 12-string headstock, all the way to the fucked up truss rods that like to break about 10 times more often than any other guitar I can think of. And don't forget the junk 12-string bridges that don't intonate the octave strings separately (their are replacement bridges available for this). Just about the only good bit of design is that you can easily change those undersized POS truss rods, which is really good, since they break so often.
The sad truth is, it is really hard to find a really good 12-string electric, that has both the sound, playability, and a solid reliable design. Ricks move around too much, and Fender 12-string electrics have a insanely narrow neck (they are the same width at the nut as a Strat - 1 5/8" - which puts the strings way to close together; they should be at least 1 3/4", preferably 1 7/8"). The width at the bridge is too narrow as well, if you ask me. They should be at least a good 1/4" wider than they are. All of this is so that Fender doesn't have to use a different shaped heel on the necks, which would complicate their production situation. Ricks have the same nut width, so I guess that's another idiot piece of design. You would never see an acoustic 12 with a nut that narrow - at least not a well designed one.
Of course, because all of the production models have this idiot piece of design, it's impossible to find a bridge that has the right spacing. GRRR! It's one of the things that most makes me want to start making my own hardware - at least when I'm making a 12-string.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
*(Made bold because everyone always seems to miss that I said so when I get to the next bit)
lpdeluxe
The Precision Bass Guy
Does Gretsch make a 12-string hollowbody? The Monkees had one.
So how do you REALLY feel, Light?
I was the bemused owner of '67 366/12 (birthday gift from my wife) for maybe 8 years. It was a gorgeous, aggravating instrument. Gorgeous because it was: glassy pinkish sunburst, figured sycamore (so I was told) on the back, binding, the works. And it was light weight.
So why did I, in turn, give it away?
The problems centered around three areas: neck/headstock, restringing, and the electronics.
First, the neck: too skinny, too thin. Mine had been converted to a 6 and I converted it back, at which point I discovered why it had been converted to a 6. Note that some people LOVE Ric necks. Me, when I pick up a bass, it's a Precision, which may tell you something.
Then there's the peghead: that was extremely clever, running three tuners horizontally and the other three vertically on each side. And it didn't take more than 4-5 months before I had the drill down pat when I found a string out of tune (it went out of tune a lot, too, which, however much it may have accelerated my education, did little for my playing time). Slot-head pegheads are the spawn of the devil (in my modest opinion) under the best circumstances -- which is when the slots go all the way through the thickness of the head and are reasonably wide, as on my Dobros. I'll come back to this in the next paragraph.
Restringing: the tailpiece is held in place by string tension, as is the bridge. I can only suppose that most Ric owners replace all the strings at once the first time only. After that, they are sufficiently snake-bit to not try that three-handed trick again. For myself, once was plenty, and from then on I restrung the monster one string at a time. Which leads to another feature: the Ric requires that you restring it in a particular order, or you can't reach into the slots adequately to secure the strings around the posts. Assuming that you do them in the proper order, you are almost certain to scar the finish on the floor of the slot with the string end.
I once visited a local tech just after he had unthinkingly cut off all 12 strings on a Ric he had just gotten in on his workbench. Had I been more of a sadist, I would have stayed and watched.
Oh yes, there's the sound, a direct product of the peculiar electronics: everyone compliments the Roger McGuinn chime, never thinking that that's all there is. One man's chime is another man's (me, for example) annoyingly trebly. If you like a little meat, go chase something that is provided with it. I was talking to a guy in Austin about it not long after I gave the Ric to my stepson (who, for what it's worth, LOVED the neck) and the guy said, innocently enough, "Man! Wouldn't that sound great through a Vox!" I didn't reply...I was thinking of nail guns in my ears.
As always, your mileage may vary. You may even like the sound of them. But if you buy, open your eyes first.
So how do you REALLY feel, Light?
I was the bemused owner of '67 366/12 (birthday gift from my wife) for maybe 8 years. It was a gorgeous, aggravating instrument. Gorgeous because it was: glassy pinkish sunburst, figured sycamore (so I was told) on the back, binding, the works. And it was light weight.
So why did I, in turn, give it away?
The problems centered around three areas: neck/headstock, restringing, and the electronics.
First, the neck: too skinny, too thin. Mine had been converted to a 6 and I converted it back, at which point I discovered why it had been converted to a 6. Note that some people LOVE Ric necks. Me, when I pick up a bass, it's a Precision, which may tell you something.
Then there's the peghead: that was extremely clever, running three tuners horizontally and the other three vertically on each side. And it didn't take more than 4-5 months before I had the drill down pat when I found a string out of tune (it went out of tune a lot, too, which, however much it may have accelerated my education, did little for my playing time). Slot-head pegheads are the spawn of the devil (in my modest opinion) under the best circumstances -- which is when the slots go all the way through the thickness of the head and are reasonably wide, as on my Dobros. I'll come back to this in the next paragraph.
Restringing: the tailpiece is held in place by string tension, as is the bridge. I can only suppose that most Ric owners replace all the strings at once the first time only. After that, they are sufficiently snake-bit to not try that three-handed trick again. For myself, once was plenty, and from then on I restrung the monster one string at a time. Which leads to another feature: the Ric requires that you restring it in a particular order, or you can't reach into the slots adequately to secure the strings around the posts. Assuming that you do them in the proper order, you are almost certain to scar the finish on the floor of the slot with the string end.
I once visited a local tech just after he had unthinkingly cut off all 12 strings on a Ric he had just gotten in on his workbench. Had I been more of a sadist, I would have stayed and watched.
Oh yes, there's the sound, a direct product of the peculiar electronics: everyone compliments the Roger McGuinn chime, never thinking that that's all there is. One man's chime is another man's (me, for example) annoyingly trebly. If you like a little meat, go chase something that is provided with it. I was talking to a guy in Austin about it not long after I gave the Ric to my stepson (who, for what it's worth, LOVED the neck) and the guy said, innocently enough, "Man! Wouldn't that sound great through a Vox!" I didn't reply...I was thinking of nail guns in my ears.
As always, your mileage may vary. You may even like the sound of them. But if you buy, open your eyes first.
pohaku
New member
At one point I thought about acquiring a Ric 620 12 string. My luthier friend said essentially the same thing Light said - although perhaps not as eloquently. His comments were more on the order of "Are you out of your mind?"
PRS makes a 12 string, although I've not played it. I know they used to do them as custom only, so there's a reasonable chance that their production model is actually pretty decent. Not cheap, I'm sure, but probably worth checking out.
http://www.prsguitars.com/custom2212/
PRS makes a 12 string, although I've not played it. I know they used to do them as custom only, so there's a reasonable chance that their production model is actually pretty decent. Not cheap, I'm sure, but probably worth checking out.
http://www.prsguitars.com/custom2212/
Victory Pete
Banned
I tried one of those at Guitar Center a while back. I wasnt impressed. The feel and vibe wasnt there. It seemed to be a bit shoddy. The headstock seemed too small. I think a 12 string should have a big headstock with a lot of mass.
VP
Light
New member
That rules out a Rick.
Try Fender's 12 string Strat. The string spacing is still too narrow for me, but it sure has a big headstock. Besides, it's near impossible to find an electric 12 which actually has a wide enough neck.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
ausrock
Well-known member
It's all down to personal preference..............I've owned and played "12s" since '69 and I detest a wide neck.
Victory Pete
Banned
I was talking about the PRS. I have tried the Fender also. It seemed hard to play, I find strats to flat. I went to Caruso Music and tried some RICs. The 660/12 had a tiny body which was uncomfortable. I played a 360 6 string that I liked but I have enough 6 strings.
Bob Ross
Your god hates me
Bah... Try to find a circa-1979 Veilette-Citron, that's got a headstock big enough to paddle a canoe with.
Supercreep
Lizard People
It's awesome
Love my 360-12, if it were lost or stolen I'd replace it.
My guitar tech folks haven't complained about setting it up, it's got great action, stays in tune, and is a beautiful instrument.
Don't let Light scare you off - as he mentioned, if you're looking for "that sound" there's nothing else that will do it.
Love my 360-12, if it were lost or stolen I'd replace it.
My guitar tech folks haven't complained about setting it up, it's got great action, stays in tune, and is a beautiful instrument.
Don't let Light scare you off - as he mentioned, if you're looking for "that sound" there's nothing else that will do it.
JRSIV
JRSIV Music Ltd.
While I'll begrudgingly agree with Light that Ric 360/12's can be a pain in the ass, 6 string Ricky's are another story. I've had a Ric 350 for years (the long scale version of the 325) and it is great for rhythm work and has a wicked, snarly lead tone when put through an overdriven amp. Enough of my defense of the Rickenbacker company.
The best electric 12 string I played was actually the top neck of a Gibson EDS1275 (yes, the big ass Jimmy Page Gibson double neck). Very unweilldy of course, but the 12 string neck had a great feel, good spacing and the humbuckers produced a lush but not too trebly tone.
Now, those beasts are expensive and a real drag to wear and cart around so if you really want an electric 12 the one's being made by Dean aren't too bad. Yeah they're only $400 or so and you're getting what you pay for but I've played a buddies and it wasn't that bad. Stayed in tune OK and had a decent sound. As an accent guitar to be used occasionally on some tracks in the studio...might be the ticket
.
The best electric 12 string I played was actually the top neck of a Gibson EDS1275 (yes, the big ass Jimmy Page Gibson double neck). Very unweilldy of course, but the 12 string neck had a great feel, good spacing and the humbuckers produced a lush but not too trebly tone.
Now, those beasts are expensive and a real drag to wear and cart around so if you really want an electric 12 the one's being made by Dean aren't too bad. Yeah they're only $400 or so and you're getting what you pay for but I've played a buddies and it wasn't that bad. Stayed in tune OK and had a decent sound. As an accent guitar to be used occasionally on some tracks in the studio...might be the ticket
.
Y
YeshuasFan
Guest
Another part of the Ric sound is the way it is strung. The Rics are strung so the player hits the primary string first, then the octave, on a downstroke. Other 12-strings are strung so the player hits the octave string first and then the primary on the downstroke. So another trick to "approximate" the Ric sound with a different 12-string guitar would be to "reverse" the strings in each course of the octave pairs.
I've been told that will involve having to install a new nut and possibly have the saddles adjusted.
Danelectro also used to make 12-strings. Epi makes a clone of the Gibson ES-1275.
I've been told that will involve having to install a new nut and possibly have the saddles adjusted.
Danelectro also used to make 12-strings. Epi makes a clone of the Gibson ES-1275.
Victory Pete
Banned
While I'll begrudgingly agree with Light that Ric 360/12's can be a pain in the ass, 6 string Ricky's are another story. I've had a Ric 350 for years (the long scale version of the 325) and it is great for rhythm work and has a wicked, snarly lead tone when put through an overdriven amp. Enough of my defense of the Rickenbacker company.
The best electric 12 string I played was actually the top neck of a Gibson EDS1275 (yes, the big ass Jimmy Page Gibson double neck). Very unweilldy of course, but the 12 string neck had a great feel, good spacing and the humbuckers produced a lush but not too trebly tone.
Now, those beasts are expensive and a real drag to wear and cart around so if you really want an electric 12 the one's being made by Dean aren't too bad. Yeah they're only $400 or so and you're getting what you pay for but I've played a buddies and it wasn't that bad. Stayed in tune OK and had a decent sound. As an accent guitar to be used occasionally on some tracks in the studio...might be the ticket
I just kicked myself in the ass, again, after 10 years! I bought an EDS-1275 in the early 90's for $1200. Sold it a couple years later for $750, needed money. It was a novelty that wore off and wasnt used much but I wish I never sold it, they now sell for $3900! I even installed a custom wiring job with an additional switch because the way they are stock it is awkward to quickly switch between necks. It did have the most sustain I have ever heard from a guitar. The massive headstock and body gave it amazing sustain. I am considering a Fireglo 360/12 I found online. It is a deal almost impossible to turn down. VP
Bob Ross
Your god hates me
Back in the late 1970's I owned an Ibanez (lawsuit-era) clone of an EDS-1275...white with gold hardware, bolt-on necks (unlike the Gibson), but otherwise identical. And holy crap did it have a big, fat rich tone!
Yes, you'd look like a pretentious twit weilding one onstage these days, but the sound is to die for.
Yes, you'd look like a pretentious twit weilding one onstage these days, but the sound is to die for.
Victory Pete
Banned
I bought the Fire Glo 360/12, I am waiting for shipment. I am looking foward to trying something different with it, no Beatles nor Byrds. Maybe the Who!
VP
VP
Y
YeshuasFan
Guest
How 'bout some Rolling Stones or Kinks?
pohaku
New member
How about The Jam?
philboyd studge
New member
I've owned both a mint Rick 360 12 and a Fender Electric XII, both made in '66. Though it was mint and looked cool the Rick was just plain weird in too many ways, while the Fender was much more straightforward. I played an acoustic Gibson 12 for most of my solo live stuff then and thought an electric would get around high volume levels, but both just seemed like one trick ponies and ended up selling the Rick for $300 and the Fender for $400. Those were the days.
It's been awhile but weren't the octave sets on a Rick reversed - low string, then high?
It's been awhile but weren't the octave sets on a Rick reversed - low string, then high?
Victory Pete
Banned
lpdeluxe
The Precision Bass Guy
When I had a new nut cut for mine, I had the luthier string it up like a regular 12. I guess I'm just not a Rickenbacker guy.