Reverb on Bass Guitar and Kick Drum tracks…

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miroslav

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
OK, I know there’s no absolute answer…but from a subjective position, I was curious how folks approached Bass and Kick reverb application during their mixing adventures.

I tend to apply maybe only about 30% (of whatever my “global reverb” sound is) to the Bass and Kick tracks…though that’s somewhat of a generalization…but basically, I don’t like to run them totally dry if I’m using any reverb on the rest of the drum kit or guitar tracks.

I like to think about my mix in terms of an overall “room” sound that places all the “players’ in the same room....and then I will adjust my global reverb to-taste on those different elements.

I usually have 3 different reverb units running during my mixes (talking about outboard gear and a real mixer…not ITB).
I’ll have my main reverb unit set up primarily for the vocals (most often I’ll go for some type of plate setting, not always ), and I may also use that same unit/sound on some instruments as well if it works for them.
My two secondary reverb units are mainly for the instruments. I’ll set both of them with the same type of room/hall sound, but one will usually be set with shorter delay time than the other. That way I can have the same room sound, but with differences in reverb depth between the two, and then, depending on the song and the instruments and all the other variables…I’ll pick which instruments will be bussed to which unit. Organ may go to the reverb with the longer delay time…and drums to the shorter, and of course, the amount of reverb level will be set at the mixer for each channel/track…and this is where I’ll only give the Bass and Kick about 30% of what I set for the rest of the kick or some of the other instruments.
But I’m always wondering about the Bass and Kick…and sometimes I want to give them a pinch more reverb in the mix, but I don’t want to risk overloading the low end reverberation and possibly cluttering up the mix…though I don’t like the idea of making them 100% dry, either.

So I was curious how far people like to push that…or not at all….
 
I don't put verb on either.....verb on bass guitar....bleh, talk about mud central.
 
miroslav said:
OK, I know there’s no absolute answer..
Click to expand...
Yeah, 'it depends kicks in right quick.. :)
Generally then, seems bass and kick are the least likely (last) to reveal a given amount of verb/ambience treatment. Or to invert, would need the most (or special) treatment to stick out.
FWIW I struggle like the dickens to build ambience space on the kit or back line I like. Given double whammies here of a) going for minimalist’ natural sizes and levels (ie not just slamming a lot of verb), and b) not recorded in and with a nice room to begin with..
Seems a tough target sometimes.
 
I don't do it very often, but I have used reverb on both kick and bass guitar.

I like the sound of a subtle room reverb on the kick if I don't have a room mic to work with. With just a close mic on the kick, a little room reverb can give it some ambience.

Same with a bass guitar. A little room reverb can give it some ambience, but things get muddy quick if it's too wet, if it has too long of a tail, or if there's too much other activity in that frequency range in the rest of the mix.
 
I agree, it's a tough target...

My only problem with running something 100% dry...is that it sounds too much like an effect.
Granted, the kick will end up with some room ambience no matter what, but if the rest of the kit has a nice room sound...I like the kick to feel like it's part of the drum set, so it needs a pinch-o-verb.

With the bass...especially when recording it DI...it's as dry as the Sahara, and IMO, it's not the way you normally hear a bass when it's being played live.
Now it's not that I'm going for a live band sound, and of course, studio recording have no rules...but whenever I set it to 100% dry, in an otherwise live-ish sounding mix...it just doesn't seem to sit right.
Granted...I'm talking about only adding a touch of reverb, not at all what you would put on your guitars and keys, etc.

I find that if you scoop away a bit of the mud frequencies of the bass before you add that touch of reverb, then you can get away with it without additional mud. IWO...if your bas is muddy...going dry doesn't necessarily remove the mud, but I agree that reverb will certainly enhance the mud! :D
 
Imho

I have been a musician first and engineer second since the 1970's.

I have been primarily a bass player and guitarist (although I play other instruments). I personally like a LITTLE verb on bass and drums... yes LITTLE! But it's all a matter of the song and personal tastes.

Any engineer that wants to record my bass dry would be looking for a new job real quick.

I come from the Yes and Who school of bass playing. I have effects, processors, and split signals in my rig, and how I play it is how I want it recorded! I output bass to both a guitar amp and a bass amp and expect both ends of the chain to be recorded as I played it.

Engineering 101 - CAPTURE the sound of the artist, don't make the sound (unless you are working with complete crap artists ... not mentioning any names like Jonas or anything, but in those cases, ok yeah, you need to make the sound).

Telling me that my bass should be recorded and mixed dry is like telling David Gilmour that feedback is no good - or Hendrix not to use a Wah pedal cause it sounds really tinny - lol - it AINT gonna happen!

Add as much verb as you and the band all agree sounds right on a track by track basis is my 2 cents.
 
I was taught that reverb on bass guitar was a bad idea. In an extreme situation for effect I guess, but as a rule...not for me. I like the bass punchy, warm and clean. I hear where Steve is coming from (Entwhistle is one of my all time favorite bass players), but I prefer a dry, "woolly", round bass sound. Maybe a touch of flanging or a phaser but no reverb for me.

Reverb on kick is more forgiving, and if it's used, I'd think a little would go a long way...
 
As you said it is subjective, and without trying out new things music would never progress. However reverb is the most overused effect (I'm as guilty as anyone), so you have to be careful. That being said, use your judgment. I usually add what I think is good, then turn it down a notch. My band was just in a studio which used reverb as a cure-all, so perhaps I'm a bit sour, but when used correctly it is one of the best effects out there. In terms of bass and kick obviously don't drown it, but a little can be good especially if everything else has some. Just make sure nothing is out of place to the listener. That may mean completely dry, or it may be the raveonettes; both good in my book.
-Nocarsgo
 
You could patch in an EQ on the Kick/Bass send before the reverb and roll off the lows, that way you won't have to worry about low frequency issues.
 
With the recordings I'm doing at the moment, I've sampled all my drums through Reason and used the advanced reverb device to put a 'gated' reverb on it (I think it's called 80's reverb or something). I've reduced it loads but it just gives a bit of extra sustain - however, as some of you may know that the 80's reverb sound isn't like convential reverb as it doesn't tail off so it effectively just lengthens the sample almost.

It sounds amazing either way but with bass, reverb is a no-no! Wouldn't only use chorus and distortion on bass when needed.
 
In the past I've used a small room with 100% wet, backed the low-end all the way off on the reverb, and adjusted input to taste in the headphones. Then, whatever that input is, I cut it in half. It took me a lot of muddy mixdowns to get there, but it seems to have decent atmosphere now.
 
I would only do reverb or any effect on kick or bass guitar during a portion of the track where there were only a bass guitar or drums and nothing else in the mix at that short segment in the track. I hope that makes since. If you ever listen to the Melvins then you know what I am talking about.
 
I would ONLY use reverb on a bass for an ambient effect, or maybe slightly if he/she had a solo then take it back out after it was done.

Verb on a kick....I never used to, but I find myself adding a little bit if the song is open/spacious enough for it. For metal it usually doesn't work, and calls for a tight quick kick.

You said you were using different reverbs......
If you use and verb on any drums, use the same for the whole drum set. It will keep things less muddy and clear.

If you want to hear GATED REVERB.......listen to the snare on Prong's "Beg To Differ" album...yikes.
 
see the problem with verb on bass instruments is that things get muddy real quick when they don't need to. It's that rebellious mid-low to low octave range that suffers most. Plus the lower you go down the frequency range, the human ear has a really difficult time making out reverb anyway.

So it's kind of a counter intuitive measure.

I was taught that if I HAD to put verbs on bass or kick, you're really only trying to accent the upper ranges of the instrument. Basically anything above 270-500hz. So you would eq that with a simple hi pass filter. The verb, not the instrument.


In the end you get a clean, *audible* reverb with all the low end tight and intact. Plus most importantly, it still leaves all this wonderful space for the rest of your mix.
 
I notice some people stated they NEVER used verb on Kick or Bass....which is a bit of a curiosity for me.
Is that because of some recording "rule"...or they never found a way to make it work...or they just don't care for it no matter how subtle it is...?

Like a mentioned...for me, mixing is first about putting the "players" all in the same space...and there's few spaces out there with NO reverb at all. :)
Of course, I don't try just to get a live band sound...but that's my starting point.
Now granted, you can mix without using that "same space" approach, and you can be rather extreme in how you layer your room textures, so that at the same time the lead guitar can sound like it's being played in an empty football stadium, while the rest of the instruments sound like they were recorded in a walk-in freezer...but that's more of "synthetic sound design" approach (for lack of a better expression)...and sure, that's al valid too....there are no rules that I know of.

I see a several responses stating the obvious..."too much reverb on the bass can make things muddy".... :) ...yeah, I think we've all found that out right-quick! But just to be clear...when I say I'm putting reverb on the bass or kick...it's at the most subtlest amount.
Like when you solo just the bass or kick and turn up their reverb level so you start hearing the actual reverb...then I back that off about half way.
So you don't really hear any *reverberation*...BUT...it's not 100% dry either.
It's j-u-s-t lifts the kick and bass, IMO...out of that desert-like dryness.

And would Bonham drums sound right if the kick was 100% dry? :cool:

One thing to also consider, is just how much room sound you end up with from tracking. Granted, if there’s already a decent amount of room sound…then there may be less or no need to add any reverb during mixdown.
 
miroslav said:
And would Bonham drums sound right if the kick was 100% dry? :cool:

One thing to also consider, is just how much room sound you end up with from tracking. Granted, if there’s already a decent amount of room sound…then there may be less or no need to add any reverb during mixdown.
Click to expand...


it's funny you said that. Rich Costey talks about just that in his Sound On Sound interview on mixing "The Pretender" by the Foo Fighters.

:D Bonhams drums would have died in the pages of history without the verb. But that was all thanks to Eddie Kramer pioneering the overhead mic thing (if I remember correctly) and being who he is.

I mean, those days it's all straight from the get go. They had a castle to work with. Don't get much roomier than that. But the same physics apply. Honestly, the same techniques still apply. I mean if it took you an entire day to set up the mics just right, then that's how it was. I mean I wasn't alive then, but I make it a point to study all my favorites.


It's really more about the early reflections, reverb times, predelays, eqing...that all constitutes a good use of verb in my opinion. I guess I'm just stressing against the "set it and forget it" approach to verbs.

It's like live mixing, you end up carving a space for the attack of the instrument to get through and sort of do some damage control on the verb. Except in the studio you can take out the room entirely if the song calls for it :D


I should of said "I never say never" but I don't remember a time when I went coo coo on the verb with the low end. Not without serious damage. It really is a taste and tact thing in the end. All up to the artist behind the console.
 
noisewreck beat me to the suggestion about high-passing the bass signal (i.e. with a buss) prior to adding the reverb. +1.

Anyone here notice the spring reverb on the bass (left channel only) in the White Stripes' "Seven Nation Army"? I think it's there more for effect than for ambience, but it's there nonetheless.
 
I normally don't apply reverb to the bass & kick track either. Whenever I do, it's just to add a distinct character to the bass track, or to give a the kick a more dispersed quality to it.
 
miroslav said:
I notice some people stated they NEVER used verb on Kick or Bass....which is a bit of a curiosity for me.
Is that because of some recording "rule"...or they never found a way to make it work...or they just don't care for it no matter how subtle it is...?
Click to expand...
Lee touched on this early on, but to put a point on an aspect of it: it's counter-intuitive to how sounds tend to act in nature.

Reverb = reflections in nature, and it's the shorter wavelength/higher frequency stuff which will display the effects of reflection/direction more. Bass, OTOH, with its longer wavelengths has a tendency to fill the space without needing or causing much directional reflection. You'll more likely to consciously notice longer delays on bass than you will shorter reverberations.

I might verb some percussion if I'm trying to synthesize or use sampled orchestral percussion (regardless of the main genre of the production), but otherwise, with most popular music styles I just never saw much need to verb the bass or the kick.

G.
 
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