Reel to reel

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willythekid

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Hello,
I'm fed up with computers and i remember how much fun it used to be to make music with my old portastudio. Now I want to get myself an 8-track analog recorder but I don't know which to choose. Do you guys know where I can get information about different machines? Like, for example, what's the difference between tascam tsr-8 and tascam 38, and what's the difference between fostex r8 and e8? Do you have any recommendations? I also wonder if and where I can get new tape for those machines.

Thank you in advance,
willythekid
 
Some really quick answers to your post:

The 38 and the TSR-8 are both Tascam 1/2" 8 tracks. The 38 is older, the TSR-8 is newer, some people swear by the 38, others by the TSR-8.

You may want to look into the Tascam 388 if you liked your old Portastudio format. It's reel to reel, 1/4", 8 tracks, and has a built in mixer like the Portastudios. 1/4" tape is pretty easy to find, and you can even get it off of Musician's Friend if you don't feel like looking too hard.

Keep looking through this section of the forumn and you can learn a lot about reel to reel 8 tracks, the differences between 1/4" and 1/2", and so on.

If you live in or near the Boston area, I'm actually selling my Tascam 388 with my supply of tape for it (about 15 reels). Private message me if you're interested.

-MD
 
willythekid said:
Hello,
Do you guys know where I can get information about different machines? Like, for example, what's the difference between tascam tsr-8 and tascam 38, and what's the difference between fostex r8 and e8? Do you have any recommendations? I also wonder if and where I can get new tape for those machines.
Click to expand...

IIRC, the E-8 can handle 10.5" NAB spools, whereas the R-8 only goes up to 7" plastic cine-type reels. The R-8 has a detachable control panel, the E-8 does not. Other than that they seem to be pretty similar. Given the choice I would probably go for the R-8 since the machines are more common.

As 38 and the TSR-8, the TSR-8 is a more modern design. It is microprocessor-controlled, whereas the '38 (like the '32) is logic-controlled. In practice, this tends to give smoother tape transport on the TSR-8, especially with things like return-to-zero where it can predict the zero in advance and slow down accordingly.
This also allows for lots of nice features, like the auto-punch-in system where you can choose two points, and it will automatically record between them. This is great if you're working solo, as it will automatically start and stop the recording giving you a chance to get behind the mic. Otherwise you need a remote control or an engineer to achieve that. Oh yes, and the TSR-8 (and also the R8) can be slaved to another tape deck, or to a computer, so you could lock two together and get 14 tracks (16-2 timecode tracks).

The chief drawback of the TSR-8 is that it only has one audio head. This makes alignment very difficult, and there is no ability to do a confidence check. The 38 has separate record and playback heads, so you can hear the recording coming back off the tape. The Fostex R8 is also like that, not sure about the E8.

You can learn a lot by lurking on e-bay and looking for people selling the recorders. Obviously some people will give garbage descriptions, but given enough time you can get a pretty good idea of what is and isn't true.
 
Most all of us here love the Tascam 388. If you want to stay with the all-in-one portastudio theme (though it is not portable) the 388 is hard to beat.

The 38 and TSR-8 are close in sound, but differ in design. The TSR-8 can be master, or slaved to time code. It has advanced editing capabilities, including an absolutely seamless punch in/out and spot erase.

The 38 is a 3-head design, which lets you monitor off the tape while recording so you know what the signal sounds like on playback in real time.

The big difference between the E8 and R8 is reel size. The R8 takes 7” reels while the E8 takes up to 10.5” reels. They are both 8-track on ¼” tape. Unless you need more record time per tape the E8 has no advantage. The R8 is light and portable and sounds good.

As for testimonials, I have the TSR-8 and can vouch for it as standing up to machines many times its price.

I recommend Tascam products in general. One big reason -- most of the parts that are subject to wear are still available from Tascam parts. They also tend to hold up better over time (in my experience). I like the Fostex R8 though.

Whatever you buy expect to spend some extra money to get it running like new. That is unless you get a machine that was well maintained throughout.

My TSR-8 had virtually no head wear when I bought it used. The original owner never quite got the hang of it -- lost interest. Considering the TSR-8 was still available new in stores in 2000, there are plenty of those out there in great condition.

On the other hand one of my Tascam 22-2 mastering decks was a little worn, though it looked perfect cosmetically. I got it for a song on eBay. I replaced the record and play heads (only $40.00 each new from Tascam). I replaced the capstan belt and pinch-roller. As a result I now have a like-new 22-2 that was made in 1989. It specs better than Tascams original published specs.

Keep in mind that if you aren't mechanically inclined you will have to pay someone else to do stuff like this. Those of us who are good with a soldering iron have it made.

Yeah, I’m having a good time.

-Tim :)
 
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thanx

Thank you for all of your replies, it helps a lot. I tend to record pretty long songs, therefore I wonder: how long is a 7" tape/10.5" in Minutes (on normal speed).

Maddog, I might be interested in your machine later when I have done some more research. It also depends on the price and if it's in a good condition. Do you have an estimate price for your machine? If you want to you can email me on willythekid@hotmail.com. I'm on mac so I don't have the instant message function unfortunately...

A totally different question: Should I even consider the TASCAM 488/688 portastudios or is the soundquality to lousy? I don't have anything against a certain amount of tape noise and so on but I still want kind of professional results....

Thank you in advance! :)
 
willythekid said:
Thank you for all of your replies, it helps a lot. I tend to record pretty long songs, therefore I wonder: how long is a 7" tape/10.5" in Minutes (on normal speed).

A totally different question: Should I even consider the TASCAM 488/688 portastudios or is the soundquality to lousy? I don't have anything against a certain amount of tape noise and so on but I still want kind of professional results....
Click to expand...

The narrow track width and low tape speed put me off that idea, but I must confess I always wanted a R2R.

I look at it this way:
1" 8-track (1969+, King Crimson, early Pink Floyd, Genesis etc) is 1/8" per track (minus some for the guard bands). Each TRACK is the width of an entire cassette tape.

1/2" 8-track (Tascam 80-8,38,TSR-8, used by Boston & Kansas) gives 1/16" per track. Generally these are used with DBX noise reduction, although the width is still good enough for use without. 2" 24-track gives 1/12" per track.

1/4" 8-track (Fostex, Tascam 388) gives us 1/32" per track. You can't generally use this without NR, either DBX or Dolby. I tried on my A-8 once, it was awful. The 1/2" 16-track B16 has been used commercially, I think Bill Nelson used it a lot. The actual track width is about the same as for domestic cassette, although the R2R machines usually run about 7 times faster which helps.

Cassette 1/8" 8-track gives us 1/64" per track.. IMHO that's just nasty.

(Oh yes, I forgot.. the TSR-8 has integrated DBX noise reduction, the 38 requires an external unit or two).

Now, for recording time, that depends on tape speed, obviously.
The reel is usually measured in feet, a 10.5" spool usually has 2400', although you can get thinner tape with 3600'. If you multiply the feet by 12, you can get the number of inches on the spool. If you divide that by the tape speed in inches-per-second, you'll get the number of seconds. Many people leave the first and last minute of the tape blank, just in case.

IIRC, a 10.5" spool at 15ips gives you around 33 minutes. For mixing down an album you'll need two. I think with 3600' spools you can get around 48 minutes (which still isn't enough for the 49-minute 'Legend of the Black Sun'), assuming you add leader tape on both ends.

Most machines run at 15ips, the 388 runs at 7.5 ips, but then it has a smaller spool size. The fostex machines run at 15ips and use 7" spools.

For 7" spools you usually get 1200' or 1800' tape (Ampex/Quantegy 456 and 457 respectively. 457 is thinner). 456 will give you around 16 minutes of recording time, 457 will give you around 24.
 
Hi, related to your question about the length of the tape I remembered this:

http://www.quantegy.com/tapetimechart.asp

Of course, you will have to know the length of the tape and tape speed of the machine to use the chart. For length of available tape check, for example usrecordingmedia or Thomann here in europe.

As an example, I did a relaxation tune of about 10 minutes on a 7" reel which fits tape of 1800' in length (Quantegy 457) at 15 ips and it took somewhat half of the tape.
 
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OK, I think I'm qualified for the easy question about where to buy tape, anyway. You can get the tape anywhere now. If you have a favorite online supply store (AMS, MF, etc.) they should all have it new in stock again. :)
Not meaning to troll the song, but go to www.soundclick.com and type artist search Dale O'Brien. If you open "Wild-Eyed Jim's", this was done on a 488 but with some outboard gear to process. I think I got a lot of bang out of the cassette for having 8 tracks. Just got an MSR-16, board, etc., waiting for the snakes to arrive so I can hook everything together. I imagine it will be quite a bit better than the 488MKII. Here's something to consider too...I chose the MSR-16 instead of the TSR-8 for this reason: if I need an average of 8-10 tracks per song, why not buy 16 track 1/2" and double on the tracks I don't use, thus thickening the sound equivalent to 1/2" 8 track? And if I do need over 8, I can choose which tracks I wish to have a bit more thin sounding. Did the same thing on the 488 when I didn't use all 8 tracks...just doubled what was left over to thicken the sound. Anyway, good luck on your "back to the future" endeavors!
 
Question about TSR8 for those in the know

Gotta question for you guys that are familiar with the TSR8. It looks like it only runs at one speed, 15ips. I have to figure out a way to transfer some reels that were recorded at 7 1/2 ips using the TSR8. I've thought about just dumping it into the DAW and doing some kind of time stretch pitch shift thing, but I haven't found a really good way.
Any ideas?
Thanks,

Reggie
 
Reggie said:
Gotta question for you guys that are familiar with the TSR8. It looks like it only runs at one speed, 15ips. I have to figure out a way to transfer some reels that were recorded at 7 1/2 ips using the TSR8. I've thought about just dumping it into the DAW and doing some kind of time stretch pitch shift thing, but I haven't found a really good way.
Any ideas?
Click to expand...
Not familiar with the TSR8 side of things (Beck will be able to help you there) but if you do go the DAW way then the best way is to sample at 96 kHz (or 88.2 kHz) and then drop the sample rate back to 48 kHz (or 44.1 kHz).

If you sample at a lower sample rate like 44.1 or 48 then you are effectively sampling your 7.5 ips recordings at 22.05 kHz, and will get a frequency response of around 10 kHz :eek:
 
Reggie said:
Gotta question for you guys that are familiar with the TSR8. It looks like it only runs at one speed, 15ips. I have to figure out a way to transfer some reels that were recorded at 7 1/2 ips using the TSR8. I've thought about just dumping it into the DAW and doing some kind of time stretch pitch shift thing, but I haven't found a really good way.
Any ideas?
Thanks,

Reggie
Click to expand...

To my knowledge there is no way to run the TSR-8 at 7.5 ips. The electronics just aren't there. Even if someone managed to rig it to operate at half speed, the repro calibration would be off, so it wouldn't sound right.

Dual speed decks have separate bias, eq, and level adjustments for each speed.

arjoll's method with the DAW sounds like your best bet.

Tim :)
 
Yeah it looks like I'm gonna have to do the sample rate thing, but I'm wondering how much high end information is going to get lost due to the limitations of the playback electronics. If the tape is going twice as fast, but the playback head can't reproduce twice the frequency of the original upper range, something is going to get lost. I guess it won't matter much since it is just voice, but just wondering.
 
That’s a good question. Voice has a lot of mid-range freqs, with upper harmonics and sibilance dropping sharply above 8 kHz or so. You probably won’t lose much. I would wonder about dbx though, if the original tape was encoded.
 
The 388 is in the true Portastudio format, and it's portable alright,...

but it's a back breaker! :eek: ;)
 
2 track on 8 track

Don't mean for this to sound stupid, but I am playing a two track 15ips reel to reel tape on a Fostex 80 8 track player/recorder. I notice all the channels light up. Am I best to use the #2 channel and the #6 channel to create the stereo output from the machine or, besides an 8 track mixer, does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks for your help, in advance.
 
Without being an expert in any sense!!! I guess that you'd get the best sound if you took one channel (of the 2track tape) from tracks 1 through 4, and the other channel from tracks 5 through 8.
 
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