Recording with SX3

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dturcotte

dturcotte

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Hey guys,

I am getting ready to record our band and I just want to make sure I will be doing things right. What I would like to know is I always hear that you should record the hottest signal possible without clipping. So does that mean the hottest on the input channels or the hottest on the master out while recording. What i mean is, should I record as close to 0db on the input and back the master down while recording so it doesn't clip? When i record hot inputs and the master fader (in cubase) is at 0db, it clips the red. So I usually pull the faders down and keep the input hot. Am I doing this right?

Hope these aren't stupid questions. thanks in advance for your help.
 
Remember to leave "LOTS" of headroom when recording digital. As you add efffects etc. it will take up more headroom. I record at -18 or thereabout.
 
Reason being - Your analog gear is designed to run at or around 0dBVU. Your converters are calibrated so that 0dBVU = (around) -18dBFS (some are higher, some lower, but that's a good place to be).

So getting a signal "hot without clipping" is literally overdriving the input chain by quite a bit.

Headroom is king.
 
if some of us are really over powering our interface inputs by that much, would'nt it be noticeably distorted? i have recorded levels at just under 0 and at -18 in my software and i honestly don't hear a difference other than level. i think i need to test this myself and do a comparison just to see.
 
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I usually record through my mixer and then into the firepod. What I do is keep my channel slider (on the pod) at around 0db and adjust the input on my mixer to get the signal just under 0db. So what you are saying is that I should try to keep that level at around -18? With the channel slider at or around 0db?
 
Everything else at unity, 0dBVU is what to shoot for. That will equate to around -18dBFS depending on your converters.

If you can't hear what's happening that far above it, it's either (1) less than wonderful monitoring, (2) difficult to notice from a single occurence or (3) both.

Or (4) which would be an absolutely amazing signal chain of a calibre only enjoyed by mythical engineers.

And when you think about it, you're going to need your signals down around there to mix anyway - Recording signals too hot (interfering with the clarity, focus, distortion, S/N, dynamics, etc.) and then *turning them down* to start a mix is just turning down the already damaged signals.

Without going on my usual rant about this, there's a lot covered here via the search function - This is "first day of school" stuff... No secret. This is how it's been done for decades. Digital didn't change it - it was designed to work around it.

And I still get rather frequent "OH MY GOD!!!" letters just about every time this comes up on the forums - Someone records too hot, tries a tune or two using *normal* levels and has an epiphany. Dozens and dozens and dozens over the last several months. Freaks me out that it was ever a problem - Preschool gain staging. Never even imagined it was an issue until I started reading "I get my signals as close to -0dBFS as I can" on the forums.

Personally, I believe it's one of the leading causes of "Why don't my mixes sound Pro?"

Sorry - I said I wasn't going to rant... :o
 
To expand on that, digital was designed to work WITH the analog system. Recording with a digital level hovering near 0 is basically like recording with your level hovering near +18 on your preamp. To make things worse, a lot of less experienced users also add a comp/limiter to their chain in order to run those levels even hotter. Every preamp is different, but they all seem to have one thing in common.... they are all designed around a unity gain structure. This implies that your average level should be approximately 0 in analog metering, but closer to the "-18" that has been mentioned in this thread. This is the way it has always been and probably always will. If you are constantly recording around 0 in the digital realm, this is what you are doing. You are distorting your signal and changing the frequency response, depth, clarity and accuracy of your preamp. Every preamp however does this differently, and on occasion can even be a useful tool. With many preamps these artifacts may not be readily noticable or drastic or anything. With some others there are distinct audio characteristics (some good some bad). You may be happy with what you are hearing now while you record hot, but inevitably if you were to do it properly you would probably be MUCH happier with your own work. It will add a whole new dimension to your work. I think the problem here comes form a misunderstanding of converters. Every one seems to know that converters do better when you "use more bits". There is some truth to his, but it seems to be grossly misrepresented. There is not much difference in most all converters in that last 30 db. On an analog preamp however there is a huge difference. In the end you have to ask yourself... would you rather a slightly more accurate picture of a signal that has been grossly changed? Or would you prefer a SLIGHTLY less accurate picture of a beautiful sound.
 
xstatic said:
In the end you have to ask yourself... would you rather a slightly more accurate picture of a signal that has been grossly changed? Or would you prefer a SLIGHTLY less accurate picture of a beautiful sound.
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Wonderfully stated. Chicklets for you.

And to make "hot levels" even LESS apparently important, let's think in terms of 24-bits here for a minute -

16-bit = 65,000 possible values (resolution).

24-bit = 16.7 million possible values.

You could record a signal that *peaks* at -47dBFS and *still* have higher resolution than a compact disc at full scale.

The "less accurate picture" still has such amazing resolution compared to the resolution of the finished product... I mean... C'mon, guys... Do you really think you're sacrificing much by "not using up all of the bits?"
 
Ok guys, thanks for the info. I did attaempt to use the search tool but it was not working at the time so I thought I would throw it in the ring. Sorry for the inconvenience but thank you for the advice.
 
..... i want to just clear this up for myself... just to make sure.... i record with a similiar setup (mixer -> layla24)....

so.... currently i adjust my analog mixer so it almost hits redline... this goes to my layla which is set at 0 (internal full).. this means that when my analog mixer hits my A/D its hitting right under 0db.. this then goes to cubase input mixer and is displayed at 0db...

so this is way too hot right?

i should adjust my mixer input (preamp) so my computer displays that the signal is hitting around -18db??? (and i assume cubase and the layla internal mixer both read in db.. not some random system)..

...and this is becuase some of that space is already taken up with fast transients that are not actually displayed by the meter,, and the rest will be used for effect headroom (maybe)..
??????

was that about right??
lower preamp levels a little bit??

thanks(and sorry)
 
TravisinFlorida said:
if some of us are really over powering our interface inputs by that much, would'nt it be noticeably distorted? i have recorded levels at just under 0 and at -18 in my software and i honestly don't hear a difference other than level. i think i need to test this myself and do a comparison just to see.
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Well, from personal experience, I used to hit the converters as close to 0db as possible too. After reading John's recommendation (which he has stated over a 1000 times around here), although I don't really hear a difference on a track-by-track basis, I can say that my mixes sound much more open. Before they used to have this "pinched" quality that always bothered me and I couldn't put my finger on what the reason was. So thanks John!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Massive Master again
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Ugh! :mad:
 
The meters on your mixer have a 0 point, somewhere in the middle of the meter. That is where you want the signal level to be. 0dbVU is line level, that is the level it was meant to run at. It is not the same as 0dbFS in your digital system, these are two different scales that measure two different things.

0dbVU on your mixer will read somewhere around -18dbFS in your digital system. You really should be nowhere near 0dbFS or redlining myour mixer.
 
@ noisewreck: Any time. I wish I could say I was surprised, but I'd only be surprised if you *didn't* have an appreciable increase in raw sound quality.

@ seismetr0n: Yes, that's way too hot. You're coming close to clipping the preamp AND the converters.

If you can, don't pay attention to the digital meters from the start - Get the mixer's level (at the track level) at around 0dBu. Everything else at unity (except for the preamp gain), that's going to translate at your converters at whatever they're calibrated to. Might be -24dBFS, might be -18, could be as high as -14. But the point is that the chain will be running as it was designed to run. Optimum signal quality, best S/N, focus, clarity, all of that wonderful good stuff - And some headroom. And incredible ease of mixing (trying to effectively EQ signals that are overdriven is rather difficult).
 
right so normally i adjust the trim pots (preamp gain?) on my analog mixer so that it almost peaks at 0db with the sliders set to 0db...
... this means the analog side is good right??

so is the digital side still too high then? it seems like turning down anything on the digital side would just cut my headroom???

i am still confused...
 
0dBVU, yes. -0dBFS, which is about 18dB into your headroom, no.
 
ok so to adjust.... (since i think im getting it now) ...
i set my layla24 internal mixer to +4, instead of the -10 it was at before... (since i was trying to 0dbvu.. my 0dbfs system)..

i think this is right.. this should cause 0dbvu on my analog mixer to be hitting around -14dbfs in cubase...

(could i get a "yes youve finally got it after 8 years of digital recording".. or a "no, youre still an idiot" from someone... thanks)
 
seismetr0n said:
i think this is right.. this should cause 0dbvu on my analog mixer to be hitting around -14dbfs in cubase...
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Yes this is right. It really depends on how your converters were calibrated. Most are calibrated to -18dbFS is line level, but yours could be -14.
 
Nice info guys... I understand now and it makes more sense of why I wasn't getting the right quality. My hats off to you all!
 
i am anxious to record again.. (probably next week) and see how it works out
 
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