Recording VCR vs tape

[Dig]

We are playing a live gig tmrw night that needs to be recorded. I can bring my tape deck, which is fairly good one to record to.

But I once remember someone telling me that the audio tracks on a VCR are better than cassette tape. Don't ADATs use SVHS tapes? I have an SVHS HIFi deck that is brand new.


Would I get better sound using a high end cassette or a high end video tape in the VCR?

Thanks

 

[imalion]

Will you be plugging the Tape recorder or VCR into the Board?

 

[A Reel Person]

Well,...

a VHS-Hifi recorder can produce near-cd-quality recordings, and is a good option for recording, sometimes.

The best VCR-hifi units have manual 'record level', but all the most modern VCR-hifi units have 'automatic gain control'.

Manual 'record level' is preferrable to 'automatic gain control', but given that most modern VCRs have 'AGC', it may be used as-is, and the 'AGC' only produces audible side effects in the minority of cases,... otherwise, most of the time the 'AGC' is transparent, and delivers good sound in recording.

 

[Dig]

"a VHS-Hifi recorder can produce near-cd-quality recordings, and is a good option for recording, sometimes. "

Thanks for the info.


"Will you be plugging the Tape recorder or VCR into the Board?"

Yes I will plug directly into the board.


Thanks

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Re: Well,...

a VHS-Hifi recorder can produce near-cd-quality recordings, and is a good option for recording, sometimes.

er, not quite... define "near cd-quality"....

The fact is, it generally is capable of better recordings than cassette, but is nowhere near CD-quality - maybe more like Minidisc quality... the FM modulation process of recording gives too many artifacts, especially on percussive transients to be considered a high-quality recording format....

You should see better results than with a cassette deck though.......

 

[Doug Quance]

Re: Re: Well,...

er, not quite... define "near cd-quality"....

The fact is, it generally is capable of better recordings than cassette, but is nowhere near CD-quality - maybe more like Minidisc quality... the FM modulation process of recording gives too many artifacts, especially on percussive transients to be considered a high-quality recording format....

You should see better results than with a cassette deck though.......

10-4 on that.

HiFi VCR's do give you more fidelity than cassettes.

But don't expect near CD quality if you have good ears.

Use a new tape, then move it into a digital format before the tape starts to fuck up. VHS has a habit of degrading pretty quick with much use.

My 2 cents.

 

[Dig]

Hey more great info.

As long as I can do better than cassette that's a plus.

Thanks and that is exactly what I am going to do. When we are finished I will capture it into my computer and then there I can mess with it a little.

Thanks again and any more opinions are welcome.

 

[DaveO]

One other thing about using a VCR. You'll maximize the sound quality by using Standard Speed (or 2 hour, or whatever your VCR calls it). Don't try to conserve tape by using the Extended Play (slowest, 6 hour, etc.) speed.

 

[jugalo180]

if you go hi

get super hi-fi

 

[Vurt]

Re: if you go hi

get super hi-fi

But don't put one of them sumbitches in an ADAT!

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Re: if you go hi

get super hi-fi

Er... why???? S-VHS is a video improvement, not an audio-related improvement........

HiFi on an S-VHS machine is exactly the same as HiFi on a VHS machine.... audio is still recorded as a form of frequency modulation.......

 

[donx]

My own experience...
We used to record our jam sessions (rock and jazz) on DAT untill one day we used a VHS hi-fi to record the same music and A/B compared the playback. Surprised we were when it was unanimous that the hi-fi recordings sounded better. They had that analog punch to them and were fuller of frequencies than the pristine dynamics of the Digital format. We did use a top end VHS deck with vu meters and volume control on the inputs.
The big plus was that instead of paying $6 for a DAT tape we could get a VHS tape for $2 for 2 hours.
Also of benefit was using an old Sony PCM-F1 digital encoder. With this unit encoding DAT quality stereo onto the video track of the VHS and hi-fi stereo tracks to boot...we could do inexpensive live recordings onto 4 tracks at the same time and they all sounded good.
$2. for 2 hours of high quality 4 track recording....even beats a protools system for bang for bucks.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Er........

Using the PCM encoder - you WERE doing digital recordings in exactly the same way as you had with the DAT - NOTHING analog about it!

I suspect you noticed such a difference because the digital converters on the PCM encoder were probably better than those in the DAT you were using.

The FM recording process used in HiFi VHS produces artifacts - period. And no - is not close to 16/44.1 digital unless the digital you're comparing to has really bad converters!

 

[donx]

The 2 digital tracks are appropriate for some sounds where you want ultimate dynamic range and no artifacts and background noises. ie. quite instrumental music and location sound ambience. On the other side, the analog hi-fi tracks are appropriate for louder drums, electric guitars, raunchy saxophone...the sounds that generally are fuller of frequencies and sound better with some tape compression to even out the dynamics and make the lower volumn content more audible.
You get the best of both worlds in one tape.
The word BETTER that I used has nothing to do with tech specs. Only what the musicians decided sounded better to their ears. No, it was not artifact free but the mix was to digital and captured both textures.
Methods like this are called 'Thinking outside of the box' and should be kept in mind for people wanting a very inexpensive route to creating entertainment with recorded musical sounds.

*FM radio has artifacts.
*Car stereos have background noise from the engine of the car.
*The fridge and aquarium add to the living room listening experience.
*The audience is usually not lab technicians and are very forgiving.
They want CONTENT and will enjoy an unique listening experience when they hear it.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

You don't get "tape effect" from a frequency-modulation format of recording!

And the artifacts I refer to are not "warmth" or "smoothness".... transients on HiFi VHS recordings tend to cause noise spikes and other aberrations that are very apparent, and not at all musical..............

 

[donx]

Yeh, I was wondering how we were getting analog warmth from fm modulation. I think we are getting the sound of built in limiter. Either way, it sounded better.
But, hey that was just one experience...most ofr my recording in general is onto a DA38 and I often split the output signals during mixing and feed it through both a Soundtcraft analog board and a TDM1000 digital board. For some tracks the Analog board sounds better and some tracks sound better through digital circuitry.
Variety is where you find it

 

[jugalo180]

Er... why???? S-VHS is a video improvement, not an audio-related improvement........

for blue bear. better mechanics my friend. rewinding, pausing, stopping, fast forwarding, all shortens the life of a vcr, super hi fi's are built to last longer. a vcr for recording will go through a lot more than the average vcr.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Robustness is a valid point...!