Recording Overdriven Guitar

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TheMajorMiller

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What am I doing wrong?

Why is it that when I'm recording guitar it sounds great clean but as soon as I hit the overdrive, no matter how good it sounds to my ears, the recorded results sound HORRIBLE??!!

Set up: Epiphone Casino-->Blackstone Appliances OD-->'76 Fender Twin, mic'ed with an SM57, into a Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro, into a Delta 1010 and Nuendo.

I feel like a complete idiot here, but I honestly play nothing but clean guitar most of the time. This really started out as an experiment that's slowly becoming the bane of my existence!!!

Any and all assistance is greatly appreciated!!!
 
Do you like how it sounds coming out of the amp? If so, then you need to work on your mic placement.

Do you not like how it sounds out of the amp? Then you need to work on your OD and amp settings.

Are you trying to hit the OD in the middle of a song while recording? If so, you need to record seperate tracks for clean and OD because your gain and EQ will need adjusted when you go between the two.

Does it sound different through your monitors when you are recording as opposed to through your monitors playing it back? If so, it's Nuendo and the reason I don't like it. It changes the sound. Something software shouldn't do.

H2H
 
It sounds great out of the amp. I suppose I could/should experiment with mic placement.

I already figured that if I had to switch between clean and OD I'd probably end up having to do seperate tracks.

I'm working in a very small home studio and am not using monitors, only headphones. It's hard to tell if things sound substantially different between recording and playback.

Nuendo changing sound??!! That's not good, very not good. Don't know if that's the case or not, but do you have any other software suggestions?? I'm up for anything...

Thanks!
 
How about a reference as to what you consider bad... post a clip...

Bad is in the eyes of the beholder...
 
What other mics do have at your disposal?
 
I don't have any clips at my disposal, I'm at the office.

How's this...?

Recorded Clean = Intro to RHCP's "Under the Bridge"

Recorded OD = Listening to any guitar part off of Husker Du's "New Day Rising" LP in a 79 Volvo through stock speakers with the bass turned up to 10.

It sounds BAD.
 
I've got a couple of SM57s (all of which I have tried), 2 AKG C460s, a Shure PG57, an SM58 and 2 Sennheiser E604s.

I've literally tried them all. The 57 sounds best. I really think it's a recording issue.

Should I maybe breakdown and look into an off-board pre-amp, maybe perhaps a compressor as well??
 
Mic placement.

The old "against the grille at an angle off the side of the cone" is crap. It just doesnt usually work...ESPECIALLY with amps with long throw speakers like on a Twin (reberb). The only good way to do it is to put one ear toward the amp while it is playing and find the exact spot that sounds best to your ear. Then put the mic RIGHT THERE. It really helps to have someone else play through the amp, but you can do it all yourself. You just need to listen carefully. People think there are formulas and exact numbers, but thats all crap. You have to use your ear. Those speakers sound very different with slight changes in where you listen to them at.

Try this out. I guarantee if you take your time and do it right you will be happy with the results.

H2H
 
TheMajorMiller said:
I don't have any clips at my disposal, I'm at the office.

How's this...?

Recorded Clean = Intro to RHCP's "Under the Bridge"

Recorded OD = Listening to any guitar part off of Husker Du's "New Day Rising" LP in a 79 Volvo through stock speakers with the bass turned up to 10.

It sounds BAD.
Post a clip later... sorry I can't determine what bad is...
 
TheMajorMiller said:
I've got a couple of SM57s (all of which I have tried), 2 AKG C460s, a Shure PG57, an SM58 and 2 Sennheiser E604s.

I've literally tried them all. The 57 sounds best. I really think it's a recording issue.

Should I maybe breakdown and look into an off-board pre-amp, maybe perhaps a compressor as well??
I don't particilarly care for a 57... it's has too much mids... I like a 421 much better. but, it's a preference issue...\

if your amp has a lot of mids to begin with, then a 57 may not be the best mike. also, your condensers may not be the mike of choice.

unless your preamp sucks so bad it's intolerable, i wouldn't get another yet. a compressor isn't going to make the difference either.

work on getting the basic tone down first. concern youself less with the room sound, than with the what's tracked. keep turning the amps EQ knobs until your closer... reduce gain... add gain... move the mic some... all in context of what the mike hears... not what the room sounds like.
 
It could be a combination of mic placement and EQing. Without a clip, I couldn't tell you what to try with the EQ.

A recorded guitar is one of the things that never seems to sound right to me (being a guitar player), no matter what I do to it. I can always come kind of close, but it's never really what I want. Lots of guitar players have the same issue. Try having other people listen to it and see if they think it's good, or really does sound like it's coming from a volvo with stock speakers.
 
You're probably hearing a lot of room sound in your ears, but the mic isn't picking it up. Try moving the mic 6" away from the grill, try it 1' from the grill, try it off center, try it pointed at the edge of the cone, try it on the edge of the cone, pointed at the center of the speaker, and try all of these things in combination.

For me, an e609s 6" from the grill, centered, pointing at the center of the cone, gives me the overdrive sound from my Boogie combo that I want.

As far as amp settings, try using less overdrive than you think you'll need, and if it's too boomy, turn down the bass. Your small room may have a "node" that is cancelling out the bass to your ears, but not your mic (since it is so close to the speaker).
 
This may be a dumb question... But what are you monitoring through?... If you have good flat response reference monitors, experiment with placement as you listen to what comes out of the monitors. This I found was the imperitive to final product.

Also here is a very nice quote for you...

I done quite a bit of work for artists on the " Metal Blade " label so I guess I can chime in

Actually a lot of this came from following around the UBER God Of Metal Engineering : Bill Metoyer. ( check the back of your records, if you dont see his name on anything, you need a trip to the record store )

Make DAMN sure your guitar is in tune, and intonated properly. Different intonations and even VERY slightly different, can make whole separate flavors of distortion so get it as close as you can. If you know the difference in distortion sound between a 24 3/4" scale guitar neck and a 25 1/2" one then you know what Im saying.

Now on to your preamp, or preamp section of your head, depending on what you got. In most cases, metal guitar tones come from a LOT, a WHOLE LOT less ( thats right LESS ) distortion/preamp gain than you would use live. For riffs and chord changes, the REAL heaviness comes from dynamics, the fact that it gets LOUDER when your pic hits the string than when the string is just resonating.
It seems obvious but its not really. You need to MAXIMIZE the dynamic range at this stage because from here on out, the signal is going to be compressed and degraded in all sorts of ways. In most cases the gain should be about where, when if you SOFTLY strum a chord it actually comes out clean. Transistor amps/pedals may not do this ( some will ) which is another reason tubes are usually perferred for this type of thing.
Now, tone. Scooped mids, cranked bass and treble right? WRONG. For recording you will need a LOT more mids than you normally would for live. You need to be heard. The way our ears work, we take most of our cues from the midrange. Get as much body in the tone as you can....not bottom, body. You can always scoop it out later if you must. Like the lumberjack says " always cut long" right ?

Ok, on to the power amp or the power section of your head if you use one. Here is where you start the dynamic reduction process. You want to get a sound with enough sustain to work, but being careful whether or not you want to HEAR power tube saturation or speaker distortion. In some cases you want to, in some cases you dont. Get a good sound that you ENJOY. Make sure ( if you can at this point in the recording) that it fits with the other tracks. You will probably use a speaker that you wouldnt like live for this process. A speaker with more mid's than normal, like a celestion Vintage 30 or maybe a Kendrick. Greenbacks are good live, but sometimes lose that all important midrange on tape. Watch the speaker distortion, get a power level that makes COMFORTABLE dynamics for you. Errr on the LESS compressed side so you gotta work just a WEE bit harder than normal to crunch it up.

Now, stand in the room with the amp. Get your head moving around until you find the one speaker that sounds better than the others, or maybe just a real good spot where it seems to sound best. I am assuming we are NOT going after a " room " sound at this point. Stick a 57 RIGHT there, where your ear was.
Now, at the console, FIRST verify that that is *roughly* the sound you heard out there. Be sure levels are where they should be etc...no eq at this point on the console. Have someone move the mic back towards or away from the cab ( or do it yourself with headphones ). You are doing two things with this:

1) changing the ratio of direct( from the speaker ) vs. reflected ( yeah you might be only a few inches from the cab but the room still is playing a HUGE part) sound coming into the mic

2)changing the amount of dynamic compression that the actual volume of the speaker is causing in the mic's diaphragm, ribbon or voice coil. You are changing the BEHAVIOUR of the sound here.

Once you like the placement of your mic, its time to get REAL tricky.

ONE mic is almost never enough, but with two or more, PHASE CANCELLATION rears its ugly head. But we got a trick for that right?

Here comes

Put the guitar down. Make it make noise, or take the cable off and stick it on something that will make noise. This noise has to be stable and constant....a fender strat's hum is perfect for this assuming it has some midrange harmonics to it.

Using your console's meters, bring that noise up to wherever your "zero" is. This will probably require a LOT of mic pre gain so make sure your speakers are turned down. DONT let anyone touch the guitar or whatever the noise source is. Once youve got the signal to zero, mute the channel

Next go into the room with the amp, and put another mic about equidistant from the speaker as the first mic is...Be careful not to disturb Mic #1.

Back in the control room, bring Mic #2 up to zero

Now, VERY IMPORTANTLY, pull Mic#2's fader ( NOT mic pre ) down to -infinity. Unmute Mic#1. Slowly push Mic#2's fader up towards zero.

If the volume at your final LeftRight Mix buss on your console goes UP, you need to flip the phase of mic #2. If your console doesnt have a phase switch, make an out of phase cable. Just reverse pins 2 and 3 on an XLR, and make DAMN sure you label that cable from now on so you dont screw up some overheads or something.
Remember if the volume goes UP flip the phase

If the volume goes down we can proceed...keep flipping the phase until the volume goes DOWN when they are at their zeros.

Now pick up a bat, knife or gun. Whatever you are best with. Threaten anyone in the control room with it and say " DO NOT touch that guitar !!!! I am gonna have headphones on at extreme gain levels and am risking it all so you can have a good guitar sound ". Wave the weapon around menacingly until you are SURE that they get the point. Kick them out and lock the door if you cant trust em...now is NOT the time for gags.

now go out to the amp with headphones on. You will hear a hiss or buzz or hum...make sure the hum in the phones is louder than the one you can hear directly from the amp.

DO NOT cough, you will blow your eardrums right into each other. Becareful of any noise that may be present.

Now, EXTREMELY carefully, move Mic#2 back and forth, left and right. SLOWLY

You should hear a whoosh, much like a flanger pedal would make.

The trick here is to find the spot where the LEAST noise is coming out of the headphones. Keep moving the mic you will find it.

have you caught the theory yet? We are looking for the spot where the two mics are THE MOST in phase with each other. If one is phase flipped, then at the most in phase spot, they will nearly cancel each other out. FIND THAT SPOT

once you got it, take off the phones and go back to the console.

Turn both mic preamps gains ALL the way down. Put fader one at the unity position on your console. Play your guitar and turn up the mic pre gain until you hit zero. Now mute Mic #1. Now turn fader 2 to the unity position. Bring up Mic pre #2 until you hit zero.

edit : OOPS!!!!!!
I forgot, tho you prolly figured it out. Unflip the phase on mic #2 at this point so that both mics are IN phase. Sorry about that

Unmute #1 and mess with the faders. Those two faders now become the BEST EQ money can buy! Turn up one then the other, experiment to your heart's content. Once you got a sound you like, buss them together and send em to a track...or keep em separate if you want some choices later...

revel in your glorious new tone!

Aaron Carey
StudioZ/Pipelineaudio
www.studiozpro.com

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Lopp said:
Very nice post Jay!

Thanks Lopp. This I have in my favorites from a couple years ago when I was traversing through these same threads. It is a GEM of a post. I don't mic any stereo pairs on a cabinet without using some of these techniques. :)
 
ah, right.. old post. my bad. nicely done though, this'll get into my favourites as well.
 
...and the winner IS...

MIC PLACEMENT.

I'm learning slowly but surely that the best place for the mic is anywhere but where you'd expect...

Thanks!!!
 
dirtythermos said:
You're probably hearing a lot of room sound in your ears, but the mic isn't picking it up.

Thats it. Jimmy Page used to say (he probably still does) is that "distance = tone".

Ever wondered how old school bands such as Led Zep got their great guitar sounds. Well besides having one of the greatest guitarists in the world playing...

You need to crank your amp until you get a great tone. Place the 57 in front of the grill about 6 inches away. Then with all your other mics, place them all around the room and record as many tracks as possible. Trust me you will be amazed what a great and rich sound you can get after you mix down all of those tracks.

Cat
 
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