recording mesa dual rectifier

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playsguitars

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Hey all.
Seems to me like every time i attempt to record this particular amplifier, it throws shi% in my face. I hear the great sound coming out of it, but i'm never able to capture what i'm hearing. No other amp has done this to me before, and i'm pondering getting a different amp, to be honest...
Don't get me wrong, this thing is a complete beast and i'm proud to have it in my rig for live venues, but when i record it, just sounds terrible. I've recently replaced the V1 with a JJ ECC83S, and the stock rectifier tube with a JJ GZ34. That cleaned it up a bit, sounds a little bit punchier and has less "sag". But still sounds weak and thin when put through the PT console. Any tricks on getting this amp to sound PHAT?!
Thanks!
 
For starters--are you double (or quadruple) tracking? Here's the deal, your amp sounds "phat" because you've got 2 ears listening to the sound as it fills a room. Stick an SM57--which is all of 1 inch wide--right up on the grill cloth, and yep it sounds small and thin.

So play it and record it once--then play it and record it again. (Don't copy and paste the same track; even if you tweak one of 'em, you've still got one sound). After you've recorded the piece twice, pan one hard left and one hard right. Listen. Enjoy. (Hard L and Hard R are just starting points so you'll hear the potential, in reality you may tweak those settings.) For now just do the same thing twice. Later on try mixing it up--different guitars on the two parts. Different amps. Same amp, different settings. Extra motion in the playing of one track. Different chord inversions on one. If all of this seems like cheating (when so-and-so plays live, there's just one guitar!), don't worry it's not. This is just a great to way to create a complex depth of sound--the same sound that a single guitar x multiple reflective surfaces x 2 ears can do live.

The next biggest reason a killer amp sounds thin when recorded is too much gain. When I'm just jamming in my studio I bury the needle on the gain. Because again, there's a decent sized room for that to fill and bounce around in. But right next to the speaker (where the mic should be) all that gain sounds like sizzle. Cut it in half (or further).

Combine those two approaches and check back and let us know how it turned out.

And then, you have to read this: http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html#contents. Even if it seems like overkill for what you're trying to do (that's why I offered some "head start" tips) believe me, you'll learn about recording heavy guitars and lots of other fun crap on the way.
 
I have yet to record much high gain, face melting stuff yet because I know it's a bit of a chore. I prefer to ease myself into things :-)

Do what WhiteStrat said. Record twice (or more). Like he said, the hard left and right are starting points. I've read in other posts where people on this board have recorded high gain stuff 6 times, then panned the track Hard R, 60%R, 30%R, 30/60/100L as well. It's quite time consuming and takes practice, just like playing does.
 
Try rolling off the bass and boosting the mids on the eq of the amp. Then roll off the gain to less than 50% of what you use live.

Place the mic midway between the cone and the edge of the speaker. A lot of the time it's in how you capture it, not the amp or the mics. I've done some brilliant recordings with a $20 Radio Shack mic and a $60 4-track recorder. And I've recorded some shit with an expensive mic into a $10,000 studio setup.
 
+1 to what others have said on dropping that gain.

I find that with rectifiers, to get that huge sound, quad tracking works best if you can do it - 4 tracks total, 2 left panned 100/80 and then the same on the right side. Less gain, more tracks = huge thickness. And definitely play a bit with the EQ on the amp as well - keep the mids in, maybe track one side with a LOT more mids and the other side with less, or perhaps one side with a Tubescreamer in front and the other side without. The subtle differences in sound will give you that massive sound, and help improve the stereo image.

If quad tracking isn't a possibility, definitely 2 tracks panned hard left/right will still give a much larger, fuller sound. Again, back off on that gain! :-)
 
Just this past weekend we had almost the same problem. The guitar player for my band has an old school Mesa Boogie Mark III from 1989 and boy is it fat. But when we put a 57 on it and tried to record, it literally sounded like crap. The clean was alright but the gain just sounded muddy and not understandable. As everyone else has said here, back off the gain a little bit and find a nice sweet spot from the speaker. That's what we did, plus turning the clean down a little, found a real nice sweet spot (it's kinda nice only having one 12'' speaker), and we ended up getting a really good sound from just one SM-57.
 
Have you ever tracked something that you consider PHAT sounding? Post that for reference and post the Rectifier so I can hear what you're hearing... otherwise well be talking past each other.

What you consider PHAT may not be that for me and Vice-Versa. We need some point of reference.
 
right, right. that's true, i'll post a file in a day or so...

i've not tried QUAD tracking the guitar yet, i'm looking for that "killswitch engage" or "into eternity" type heavy sound. it just sounds so nice and fat without the "fizzy" sound i always come across. i always try to go easy on the gain, but my instincts keep telling me "turn it up just a taaaad more." and it sounds very fizzy and grainy anyway. it may also be my cabinet, as i'm usually pushing it to it's limit, trying to get that tube saturation. here's the setup so it may be of some help..

prs SE custom (stock)
mogami cable
Mesa DR (ECC83 in V1, GZ34 in Rec. position.) (amp is dropped to 50W)
25' speaker cable to cab
1960B flat marshall 4x12 from 1985, therearound.
all this goes into an ART GOLD pre, with original mullards in them (they still work) and then into a Digi 002 rack all at 96k. it all goes in to pro tools LE and that is pretty much it...i've been doing some guitars with and without some kind of boost in between the guitar and amp, such as a boss octave to try to thicken up some of the tracks. I usually use an SM58 and a Sennhiesser E609 in tandem to mic the cab.

in addition, you can find some of the bands where i HAVE gotten a great tone outta the amp, but just not that metal tone HERE:
www.myspace.com/timelinestudio
 
playsguitars said:
right, right. that's true, i'll post a file in a day or so...

i've not tried QUAD tracking the guitar yet, i'm looking for that "killswitch engage" or "into eternity" type heavy sound. it just sounds so nice and fat without the "fizzy" sound i always come across. i always try to go easy on the gain, but my instincts keep telling me "turn it up just a taaaad more." and it sounds very fizzy and grainy anyway. it may also be my cabinet, as i'm usually pushing it to it's limit, trying to get that tube saturation. here's the setup so it may be of some help..

prs SE custom (stock)
mogami cable
Mesa DR (ECC83 in V1, GZ34 in Rec. position.) (amp is dropped to 50W)
25' speaker cable to cab
1960B flat marshall 4x12 from 1985, therearound.
all this goes into an ART GOLD pre, with original mullards in them (they still work) and then into a Digi 002 rack all at 96k. it all goes in to pro tools LE and that is pretty much it...i've been doing some guitars with and without some kind of boost in between the guitar and amp, such as a boss octave to try to thicken up some of the tracks. I usually use an SM58 and a Sennhiesser E609 in tandem to mic the cab.

in addition, you can find some of the bands where i HAVE gotten a great tone outta the amp, but just not that metal tone HERE:
www.myspace.com/timelinestudio
Click to expand...

You might want to try the e609 on the cab and some sort of LDC back a few feet to capture some of the room (if the room is treated anyway)
 
Here's my trick with dual rectifiers:
- Less gain as already said.
- More master, but how much? Just a bit of speaker cone breakup. How to set the master when it's SO loud you can't think? Bring the head into another room using a long speaker cable. Then turn up the master (while listening through headphones) until you hear a distinct high pich crackle. Turn it back down so that you can just barely hear that crackle with downbeats and heavy playing. You will get tons of dynamics, clarity, and a real aggressive sound. Don't do too much or it'll be too fizzy. This ia also REALLY dependant on the speakers when/how the sound occurs if at all.
 
I reads that two 57's work well together. Both same distance (close as possible to the grill). One off center at 90 degrees, the other at 45 pointing towards center. Then mix the two tracks to taiste.
 
www.myspace.com/myturntowin We're a hardcore band from NJ/Philly area

we tracked our guitars Direct. cleaned up the playing a bit, w/ some overdubs, and sent them back out via little labs reamping equipment...

one side is:
Mesa Boogie Dual Recto.
Bogner Uberschall

other side is:
Framus Dragon top
5150II

Cabs:
Mesa Recto Cab
Orange 4x12

mics':

Mesa Cab:
SM57
Heil Pr40
Senn.. 421

Orange Cab:
SM57
Senn 421
AKG D112

All 6 mic sources run through Manley preamps, checked for phasing, and then blended to taste via mackie mixer, bussed to one final mono in, into the computer.
 
well, i found what i was missing the whole time. I ended up tracking a very dynamic sounding CH2 with the gain at around 1pm. just enough to saturate it but still maintain the clean transients. panned right and left. I then took CH3 and drove the living crap out of it, gain MAXED! panned right and left as well. Mixed to taste. used an SM58 in the same position for all tracks. The result is CRUSHING. It sounds like the DR that I envied on records that I had to eventually have. Turns out quad tracking is really where it's at! It's just a guessing game with the DR, I suppose. But anyway, I finally found that tone i've been searching for. I can't wait to get the rest of my tubes done to see how THAT sounds!
 
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