Recording Guitar and vocals at the same time

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Chrisdb

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All right guys, I'm new here and am in need of some advice. I've only been recording for a bout a few months so far, and damn its tricky to get things they way you want. Problem is I pkay guitar and sing at the same time, and I have the classic problem of trying to recording both parts without them bleeding.

I have an AKG perception 220 which i use for vocals, and an AKG c1000s which i use for acoustic guitar. I have to say im not too impressed with the sound of the C1000s for guitar, i cant get it to sound full enough without it sounding too muddy. Whenever I record the acoustic always bleeds through to the 220. Can anyone offer any advice on how to avoid this or perhaps maybe buy a new mic for vocals which would iscolate them from the guitar. Then I could just use the 220 for acoustic guitar,whoch seems to sound much better anyway.

Cheers
 
Just dont do both at the same time...or just sing quietly while the guitar is being recorded...and get a better mic for the guitar.

Sell the c1000...Id reccoment the AT3035 for the guitar...can be had mostly for under $100 and does a splendid job on guitar...and might be good for your vocal too.
 
Chrisdb said:
All right guys, I'm new here and am in need of some advice. I've only been recording for a bout a few months so far, and damn its tricky to get things they way you want. Problem is I pkay guitar and sing at the same time, and I have the classic problem of trying to recording both parts without them bleeding.

I have an AKG perception 220 which i use for vocals, and an AKG c1000s which i use for acoustic guitar. I have to say im not too impressed with the sound of the C1000s for guitar, i cant get it to sound full enough without it sounding too muddy. Whenever I record the acoustic always bleeds through to the 220. Can anyone offer any advice on how to avoid this or perhaps maybe buy a new mic for vocals which would iscolate them from the guitar. Then I could just use the 220 for acoustic guitar,whoch seems to sound much better anyway.

Cheers
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I prefer to play and sing at the same time. Most times I use a fig.8 on the guitar with the null directed toward my head. I either sing into a dynamic or another fig.8 with the null pointed toward the guitar. Works quite well for me.
Using any cardiod condensers makes it difficult.
 
I really have tried doing both seperate but it doesnt work for me, i sound better singing and playing, the dynamics of the song dont seem right unless i do both together. Im not sure what to make of the c1000s when i bought it i didnt know much about mics and recording, the guy was like "oh yea its good for anything" shows that you cant always rely on music stores advice.

Any advice on a better mic for acoustic guitar? ill look into the AT305
what do you guys think of the perception 220?
 
maybe id be better of getting a new mic for vocals rather than acosutic guitar because the guitar bleeds quite badly over the 220, which is very frustrating, and its more important to keep the vocal track clean than the guitar track
 
Try a dynamic on your voice, do you have a 57 laying around? If not, someone you know does. I like it on vox, some people do, but many don't. Still, might be something to try before you invest in a sm7.

And hey, since you don't like the mic you're using on guitar anyhow, why not try some sdc's? I like sm81, but have switched over to a pair of msh omni's, and you don't want omni's if you're trying to cut down on bleed.
 
Thing is I can only use one mic for each, because I only have two mic inputs on my m-box 2.
 
I've got some good sounds recording my bro with just one mic.

What I did was just take some extra time with mic placement (AT4050 in my case) to where I got around 65% vocals being picked up and 35% guitar. It DO take some time to get the mic right but it came out good here. Try just angling/rotating the mic upward more toward you and away from the guitar.

Another idea...what if you went ahead and tracked it with your 2 mics, bleed and all, and then double tracked just the guitar and then the vocals separate. You'd still get the performance but you'd have more control over the individual tracks. I've done this too and the trick is to really know your song so you can do it the same way twice.

worth a shot...
 
(1) A pair of dynamics, one for voice, one for guitar. An SM57 has been the classic, close-miked dynamic to isolate acoustic guitar on a loud stage. There are a lot of similar mics out there. One of the nice thing about dynamics is that some of the absolute best cost under $400. At the moment, I'm really impressed with the Heil PR-40, a complete "throw-it-at-anything" sweetheart.

(2) Substitute one or two ribbon mics, above

(3) As much as we complain about the quality of mics, it's actually tough to find some that don't pick up most of what you hear---except, of course, shotgun mics. I once tried boundary mics (x) on acoustic tile in this (isolation box) configuration:


Voice x|
_____|
. x
Guitar

Effective, but inconveniently wierd (and wierdly inconvenient).

(4) Isolate the voice from the guitar with a good pickup system.

Since this is the way you like to work it, my once-and-for-all suggestion is to get a pickup or Heil PR-40 for your guitar and whatever dynamic works for your voice.

Paj
8^)
 
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I have started getting pretty good results using this setting for the mics here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xw9UB_8E_M

You have to watch for a little bit but Paul McCartney records some stuff live off the floor in this video. I think he starts playing at 3:00 in

I would say though that unless you are recording in a room that sounds as good as Abby Road then you may want to mic closer up than Paul does here...

I then run the guitar and vocal though a mid-side encoding to great a nice stereo spread... I think this is what Paul did here. I put the guitar on the sides and the vocal up the center. You can get a great sound using this technique and really lose a lot of the bleed too, you may have to do a little reading about how to do mid-side mixing, send me a PM if you get too lost.
 
My thought is to embrace the bleed through, after all it is the same song, and it's unavoidable. I like bleed through and make little or no attempt to stop it... I don't use headphones anymore and accept the bleed through from speakers I listen to. Bleed through makes the song sound fuller... it's like doubling, so I don't fight it.

There should be no problem with accepting the bleed through as long as the mics sound ok. I'm not familiar with the mics you're using but it would be reasonable to think that they are likely the problem as others have posted here.

The #1 problem everyone seems to be having here on this site is not having Neumanns. There, I said it. And I'm not real comfortable saying that because I know most people can't afford them anytime soon... but that to me, is the unfortunate truth. It's like not having Zildjians, using cheap cymbals and wondering why it doesn't sound right.

I know because I went through this exact same stuff for years and when I got my first Neumann my jaw dropped and I said "The Beatles".

A friend of mine has only 3 mics - 2 KM84's and a U87, and he says he can do anything with that combo, and I'd say the same thing.

If that's not a possibility, I'd check out the clones around... it's hard to imagine a $100 Neumann look-alike would be any good but then a Kia is amazingly good so who knows. A big diaphram condenser is in order - SM57's are nice but they suck (there I said it) for all but a few things like snare, congas and vocals that sound like "Fortunate Son".

Just use your ears - if it sounds good then it is.
 
Wow you guys are very helpful, I like this forum :), I'm suprised about the recomondations of a dynamic mic for vocals, everything ive researched so far seems to point out that condensers are best for vocals, is this not true? I got the impression that you would only use a dynamic mic for sreaming vocals or for a gritier sound, because they are not as transparent as condensers?
 
Chrisdb said:
Wow you guys are very helpful, I like this forum :), I'm suprised about the recomondations of a dynamic mic for vocals, everything ive researched so far seems to point out that condensers are best for vocals, is this not true? I got the impression that you would only use a dynamic mic for sreaming vocals or for a gritier sound, because they are not as transparent as condensers?
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It's like shoes - whatever works for you is fine.

I read once that Phil Collins used a M88 (a $400 dynamic) through a cheap compressor and that that was his sound. Like a millionaire that prefers a certain pair of $8 sneakers.

Yes, the vast majority of lead vocals you've heard on records have been through large diaphragm condensers, and most of them Neumanns, but whatever works... works.

Stevie Wonder used a EV RE20 sometimes, that's a dynamic. But in general people want the condenser sound in the high end... they generally have a lot more highs and sound clean.

There's only 1 rule that always works: no rules

Myself I always want the lead thing to have the most treble. It bothers me, say, if the guitar is brighter than the vocals as it will detract from the voice, so for that I want a condenser on vocals so it sticks out more. Nothing worse than bright guitar and dull vocals, well maybe a root canal.

If you go outside when it's real quiet and listen to the wind in the trees, there's lots of treble, tons. But it's feathery, it doesn't hurt one iota like electronic treble can. I try to remember that sound and that's the ideal I try to go for, that's ground zero.

You don't have to have great gear to sound great.

And of course, make sure your guitar is really well tuned, has good strings and you play really well (that's the hard part) and that's more important than any mic.
 
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yeah...pretty much whatever works. ;)

I don't like dynamics on my voice and I don't like em on my acoustic. My "go to" setup for acoustic guitar (keep in mind I don't sing n play at the same time) is a pair of SDC's, 1 at around the 12th fret and one down at the bridge about 4 inches out but not pointed toward the sound hole (too boomy). Sounds good to my ears.

Just mess around with placement and technique. Like was said...there's really no rules to this game....except for farting in microphones. ALWAYS use someone elses. :D
 
Some good advice here, the fig 8/null thing is a good thing. The problem may be a loud voice and a soft guitar, ore a loud guitar and a soft voice.

I do have expensive Neumann mics and I would use them in case there's a good balance between the vocals and the guitar, spil is no problem with Neumann mics because it sounds good.

But if yoy don't have the Neumann budget, the Beyer M88 might be a fine alternative and I'll tell you why: the M88 sound much better than many cheap condensers, it's hyper cardioid and it has a very nice off axis response.

So, two M88's ain't bad at all. The M88 costs some €265 in the Netherlands. It sure is a very versatile mic as well, kick, toms, floor, horns, uprihjt bass, guitarcabs, basscabs, the M88 will do just great.

But, there are many mics that will do fine, the M88 is a classic and for a good reason. It is about the only mic you can use for keeper vocals in a band at once recording in one room and I'm talking about loud bands.
 
Chrisdb said:
Wow you guys are very helpful, I like this forum :), I'm suprised about the recomondations of a dynamic mic for vocals, everything ive researched so far seems to point out that condensers are best for vocals, is this not true? I got the impression that you would only use a dynamic mic for sreaming vocals or for a gritier sound, because they are not as transparent as condensers?
Click to expand...

Most of the time I reccomend the Dynamics for male vocals...outside of an irish tenor voice condensers are mostly for girls and nonamplified instruments.
 
Chrisdb said:
... I have to say im not too impressed with the sound of the C1000s for guitar, i cant get it to sound full enough without it sounding too muddy. Whenever I record the acoustic always bleeds through to the 220. ...
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Try the c1000 in hypercard adapter mode in the voice voice position, the 220 on guitar?
 
Two figure-of-eight mics with the end-nulls pointing at the guitar and the singer respectively. It works phenomenally well if executed properly.

Frank
 
(sheepishly) If you can add the room + amp to the guitar after the fact, why not simply record the guit with an instrument cable directly to your interface? If it's acoustic guitar, try playing an electric guitar, unplugged during your vocal track, after the fact. I've done this process using my electronic piano, and the only thing you hear on the vocal track is the sound of my fingers hitting the keys. By the time it's put together with the music in the mix, it's natural, and not so noticeable as it would be with the bleed of an amplified instrument.
 
maybe you can record the song while you play and sing...then use that as a scratch track....listen to that track in cans while you play along with it again and record the guitar track...then go back and listen to that again while you play guitar and sing along with it....but use a dynamic mic on your vocals so you dont pick up the guitar...and even if you do pick up a bit of the guitar, you might be able to use that to fill it out a bit...
 
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