Recording drum with 9 microphones and a Zoom R16

[Graad]

Hi,

First of all, i'd like to apologize in advance for the poor english level.
I'm from the french part of Belgium, english is not my mother tongue.

I'm going to explain you my issue.
Here is my actual configuration :
- Pearl Export series drum 22/10/12/13/16 and a snare drum (6 pieces)
- Zoom R16 USB 2.0 with 8 inputs connected to the computer
- Shure Beta 52a for the kick, Shure Beta 56 for the snare, Audix i5, Shure Sm57 (2x) for the rack toms and Sennheiser e602 for the floor tom, a matched pair of Audiotechnica Atm33a for the overheads.
I first started with 4 mics and i added progressively the mics tom.

In a few weeks, i will receive my new drum, a Mapex Saturn IV with this configuration : 22/8/10/12/14/16 + snare drum ==> 7 pieces. I play mostly progressive music, i like the idea of having a lot of diversity in the sound.
So, there will be a new tom.
That means i'm facing a problem for the recording of the new tom.
I'll have seven pieces of drum plus two overheads and 8 inputs on the Zoom R16.

I have some options :
- Using one microphone to record two toms at once, but i dunno if the result will be as good as what i get until now with one mic by tom ;

- connecting a mixer with the two overheads (or two toms) to the Zoom R16 (but i don't know how) and a new microphone for the tom ;

Overhead 1 and 2 ==> Mixer ==> Zoom R16 ==> computer
Kick, snare, 4 rack toms, floor tom ==> Zoom R16 ==> computer

- connecting another mixer with the two overheads mics through USB to the PC, but i don't know if i can record the Zoom in one software and the other mixer in another one and a new microphone. I have an extra input for later on the Zoom R16.

Overhead 1 and 2 ==> USB Mixer ==> computer
Kick, snare, 4 rack toms, floor tom ==> Zoom R16 ==> computer

The choice of the overheads on the mixer is, for me, the easier way to sync the record with the one from the Zoom.
By the way, i'm almost using the same system actually with the Zoom R16 in Samplitude and an USB mic (Samson CO3u, for the room) in Audacity. I'm mixing the two in Samplitude. But i think the USB mic isn't considered as an interface. My question is to know if i can record an USB interface in Samplitude and another USB mixer in another software.
I don't have Firewire connection.

I ask you what is the best solution for me, or if you have better options for me.
Oh, I would avoid the solution of buying a second Zoom R16, to save some money.
But, if it's the only solution, well...

Sorry again for the english.

Thanks in advance,
Graad

 

[miroslav]

If you really feel you need that many mics, one for each piece....I would put a single mic between the 8" and 10" Toms and move on.

 

[RAMI]

Overhead 1 and 2 ==> Mixer ==> Zoom R16 ==> computer

The problem with this is that, you'll still be using 2 inputs on the interface., so it's not accomplishing anything. Unless you sum the output of the mixer into to 1 input on your interface, which will make your overheads mono, and I don't think you want that.

In fact, any 2 things that you put into the mixer will either end up mono, or take up the same 2 inputs on the ZOOM. If I had the choice, I'd much rather have 2 toms go into one input than 2 overheads.

 

[JohnRick]

Well - I also occasionally record progressive metal with my Zoom R24, but I only utilize 7 inputs, since I only have three toms. In your case you could perhaps get a mic with 8-characteristics sticking up right between two toms, to share one input? Or you skip one of the toms all together, but that's not an option I take it?

 

[JG96]

+1 on sticking the same mic on multiple toms. Getting the mic a little up higher will give the track a more natural sound anyway.

 

[moresound]

+1 on sticking the same mic on multiple toms. Getting the mic a little up higher will give the track a more natural sound anyway.

This is a very good way to go about it.

 

[Graad]

If you really feel you need that many mics, one for each piece....I would put a single mic between the 8" and 10" Toms and move on.

I first started with a 4 mics configuration (kick, snare and overheads). I know we can get great results with only 4 mics.
After some months of training, i decided to buy some mics for the toms, because i wanted more focus on them.
I think this solution is the better, to put one microphone between the two smallest toms.
My question is : which microphone do i use ? I actually record the snare with the Beta 56 but i can use it for the toms and use the Audix i5 for the snare.
I'd still prefer using the two SM57 to get the same sound for the 12 and 14 toms. I keep the e602 on the 16" floor.

The problem with this is that, you'll still be using 2 inputs on the interface., so it's not accomplishing anything. Unless you sum the output of the mixer into to 1 input on your interface, which will make your overheads mono, and I don't think you want that.

In fact, any 2 things that you put into the mixer will either end up mono, or take up the same 2 inputs on the ZOOM. If I had the choice, I'd much rather have 2 toms go into one input than 2 overheads.

Oups, i'm sorry.
I wanted to write two toms instead of the two overheads. Much more clever this way.
But i think that the outputs from the mixer are all stereo. Unless i can pan them on the same channel (left or right) to get a mono signal.

Well - I also occasionally record progressive metal with my Zoom R24, but I only utilize 7 inputs, since I only have three toms. In your case you could perhaps get a mic with 8-characteristics sticking up right between two toms, to share one input? Or you skip one of the toms all together, but that's not an option I take it?

I'd rather prefer the possibility to record all the toms.

 

[RAMI]

I don't disagree with you guys about the one mic. But, if he already has the 9th mic and the mixer, why not mic each tom separately, put them through the mixer, and then send them together into one input of his interface?

The reason I suggest that is because he wouldn't have to sacrifice mic placement to get a good balance, volume-wise, between the 2 mics. With a mic on each tom, he could place each mic right over each tom and then adjust the volume between the 2 mics in the mixer.

Either way works, but I think as long as he's got the 9 mics and the mixer, might as well get a bit more control over the 2 toms.

 

[RAMI]

But i think that the outputs from the mixer are all stereo.

Well, then how did you expect to save a channel buy using the board? I'm assuming you have 2 mono outputs from the mixer, but I might be wrong. Most mixers do, though. If that's the case, just pan the toms to one side and take a mono output from that side.

 

[Graad]

I don't disagree with you guys about the one mic. But, if he already has the 9th mic and the mixer, why not mic each tom separately, put them through the mixer, and then send them together into one input of his interface?

The reason I suggest that is because he wouldn't have to sacrifice mic placement to get a good balance, volume-wise, between the 2 mics. With a mic on each tom, he could place each mic right over each tom and then adjust the volume between the 2 mics in the mixer.

Either way works, but I think as long as he's got the 9 mics and the mixer, might as well get a bit more control over the 2 toms.

In fact, i don't have the ninth microphone yet, neither the mixer.
I wanted to choose the best solution before making a mistake.

Well, then how did you expect to save a channel buy using the board? I'm assuming you have 2 mono outputs from the mixer, but I might be wrong. Most mixers do, though. If that's the case, just pan the toms to one side and take a mono output from that side.

That's the question i was asking. I was not sure how to connect the output from the mixer to the Zoom.
But i was also worried about the noise from the output. Even if the Zoom is very useful for my use, i think the inputs are not the best in the world. Don't need too add much more noise in the channels.
That's why i was also thinking about the USB mixer, but i'm not sure it could work with two USB interface on the same computer. And some extra work to sync the two recording...

 

[RAMI]

In fact, i don't have the ninth microphone yet, neither the mixer.
I wanted to choose the best solution before making a mistake.

Ah, I see. Well, then that's a different story. It's obviously not worth going out and buying all that just for one more tom. Listen to the other guys.

 

[Graad]

Ok, thanks a lot everyone !
I'll make some tests with the Audix i5 and the Beta 56 between the two toms and see which one fits the best for this use.

 

[JG96]

Though testing is always good I have a suspicion the i5 may be a better candidate as it is cardioid rather than hyper-cardioid.

 

[Graad]

Though testing is always good I have a suspicion the i5 may be a better candidate as it is cardioid rather than hyper-cardioid.

Ok, that would be even better, the Beta 56 is already recording the snare and the Audix the 10" tom. No change to make.

 

[BrentDomann]

Another option is that if you know how you want the toms panned, run all of the tom mics into the mixer and run a stereo out from the mixer to the R16. Your R16 Channels will then be OH left, OH right, kick, snare, toms left, toms right.

EDIT: Derp. RAMI said it already. I'll rep him 'cause he beat me to the punch, plus it's a fantastic idea if I say so myself! Also, he's right about not going out and getting a mixer.

SECOND EDIT: "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to RAMI again."

 

[Graad]

Another option is that if you know how you want the toms panned, run all of the tom mics into the mixer and run a stereo out from the mixer to the R16. Your R16 Channels will then be OH left, OH right, kick, snare, toms left, toms right.

EDIT: Derp. RAMI said it already. I'll rep him 'cause he beat me to the punch, plus it's a fantastic idea if I say so myself! Also, he's right about not going out and getting a mixer.

SECOND EDIT: "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to RAMI again."

Thanks anyway for your answer, i appreciate.
Anyway, i keep the idea of the mixer and the toms connected to the mix.
Because i can consider the buying of a cheap condenser mic for the high hat or the ride. The mixer could free two inputs on the Zoom.

I'm not satisfied with my sentence, but i hope it's still understanding.

 

[Rod Norman]

Since clear communication is the purpose of language your English is fine. I believe you might try this: Use a mixer to do your stereo items into two channels of the Zoom. The two overheads plus the 8" and the 16" tom can be summed to two channels of the Zoom. That leaves your with the Bass drum, the 10, 12, 14, and the snare. That's seven inputs. Your right over head will have the 16" tom on it, and the Left overhead will have the 10" tom on it. Racked left and right, you should be able to mix in the other drums to make a good stereo mix. Good Luck,
Rod Norman

Hi,

First of all, i'd like to apologize in advance for the poor english level.
I'm from the french part of Belgium, english is not my mother tongue.

I'm going to explain you my issue.
Here is my actual configuration :
- Pearl Export series drum 22/10/12/13/16 and a snare drum (6 pieces)
- Zoom R16 USB 2.0 with 8 inputs connected to the computer
- Shure Beta 52a for the kick, Shure Beta 56 for the snare, Audix i5, Shure Sm57 (2x) for the rack toms and Sennheiser e602 for the floor tom, a matched pair of Audiotechnica Atm33a for the overheads.
I first started with 4 mics and i added progressively the mics tom.

In a few weeks, i will receive my new drum, a Mapex Saturn IV with this configuration : 22/8/10/12/14/16 + snare drum ==> 7 pieces. I play mostly progressive music, i like the idea of having a lot of diversity in the sound.
So, there will be a new tom.
That means i'm facing a problem for the recording of the new tom.
I'll have seven pieces of drum plus two overheads and 8 inputs on the Zoom R16.

I have some options :
- Using one microphone to record two toms at once, but i dunno if the result will be as good as what i get until now with one mic by tom ;

- connecting a mixer with the two overheads (or two toms) to the Zoom R16 (but i don't know how) and a new microphone for the tom ;

Overhead 1 and 2 ==> Mixer ==> Zoom R16 ==> computer
Kick, snare, 4 rack toms, floor tom ==> Zoom R16 ==> computer

- connecting another mixer with the two overheads mics through USB to the PC, but i don't know if i can record the Zoom in one software and the other mixer in another one and a new microphone. I have an extra input for later on the Zoom R16.

Overhead 1 and 2 ==> USB Mixer ==> computer
Kick, snare, 4 rack toms, floor tom ==> Zoom R16 ==> computer

The choice of the overheads on the mixer is, for me, the easier way to sync the record with the one from the Zoom.
By the way, i'm almost using the same system actually with the Zoom R16 in Samplitude and an USB mic (Samson CO3u, for the room) in Audacity. I'm mixing the two in Samplitude. But i think the USB mic isn't considered as an interface. My question is to know if i can record an USB interface in Samplitude and another USB mixer in another software.
I don't have Firewire connection.

I ask you what is the best solution for me, or if you have better options for me.
Oh, I would avoid the solution of buying a second Zoom R16, to save some money.
But, if it's the only solution, well...

Sorry again for the english.

Thanks in advance,
Graad

 

[JimmyS1969]

Since clear communication is the purpose of language your English is fine. I believe you might try this: Use a mixer to do your stereo items into two channels of the Zoom. The two overheads plus the 8" and the 16" tom can be summed to two channels of the Zoom. That leaves your with the Bass drum, the 10, 12, 14, and the snare. That's seven inputs. Your right over head will have the 16" tom on it, and the Left overhead will have the 10" tom on it. Racked left and right, you should be able to mix in the other drums to make a good stereo mix. Good Luck,
Rod Norman

What??? I must need to take a nap cuz that made no sense to me..Witchery commentary there IMO... lol!


I am curios to see how this works out for the OP. Much funky Jimmy rigging has been done by me in the past. It worked for the moment, but never resulted to be a 'best approach'.

 

[RAMI]

What??? I must need to take a nap cuz that made no sense to me..Witchery commentary there IMO... lol!

You must not read his posts that often because he never makes sense, or he just gives completely ridiculous advice, bordering on completely incoherent blabber. I might come back and edit this when I've had time to think about it because I made the same comment about his posts before, only to come back and edit in the name of keeping the peace. But, seriously, I'm not exaggerating when I say all his posts are this incoherent and just plain wrong.

 

[JimmyS1969]

You must not read his posts that often because he never makes sense, or he just gives completely ridiculous advice, bordering on completely incoherent blabber. I might come back and edit this when I've had time to think about it because I made the same comment about his posts before, only to come back and edit in the name of keeping the peace. But, seriously, I'm not exaggerating when I say all his posts are this incoherent and just plain wrong.

Naw man, don't change anything. I feel the same.