Recording an EP, some questions on the drums

[gtrfreak182]

Okay, so I have what i feel to be a pretty descent setup:
Logic Studio
PreSonus 8 input (option for Tascam 10 input if necessary)
Sm57 on snare and toms (2 floor, 1 high, 1 on the snare)
D112 on kick
St31s for overheads

a total of 7 mics used

I also have:
Nt-1 A
MXL 990,991
2 PG58
2 PG48
1 Sennheiser 838

heres the deal, Im looking to get a really punchy sound cause we play hard rock/metal. specifically:
1. snare from intro to Buckcherry's 'Next 2 You'
2. toms somewhere between pre-chorus to Buckcherry's 'Everything' and intro to Red Jumpsuit Apparatus' 'Damn Regret'
3. kick from intro to Rage Against The Machine's 'Take The Power Back'
4. cymbals somewhere between pre-verse to Avenged Sevenfold's 'Almost Easy' and the chorus to Red Jumpsuit Apparatus' 'Face Down'

obviously i'm not expecting it to sound exactly like this, my setup is nowhere near those, but I'm looking to get as close as I can possibly can. Now, I'm usually pretty good about getting a good sound but I have a few questions:
1. I have 1 input left (possibly 3 if i want to, i like presonus preamps better so i prefer not but will if necessary), I like that real accented ride bell and hi-hat sound that A7X gets, would using the 991 on the hi hat and a 990 or Nt-1 on the ride be a good idea? The only issue is bleed, if I put a large condenser on the ride and pan it might offset everything else. Suggestions?
2. Gating, every time I try to use one, it sounds cut off or useless. I am using Logic Studio so I know there is a way to get a good one, anyone who uses Logic have any suggestions on good gate settings for these mics (especially toms)?
3. I'm having a hard time getting a good sound out of the snare, I can't afford any mics at the moment, so would the 991 pencil underneath the snare get a good sound? It might be my EQ techniques, idk. Any suggestions on mixing the snare?
4. When I was doing tom/bass drum fills, it sounded a little muddy and too bassy, When I try to lower the bass it just makes it sound like I used computer mics but doesn't help the problem. Any suggestions?

I can use all the help I can get, gonna be recording in 2 weeks and I'd like to have the guns prepared by then. I'm gonna be trying everything given to me, so if you have an idea that might work, shoot it down, I'd rather waste my time trying something that might work then being stuck without anything with the same problem. Peace.

 

[RAMI]

I won't get into specifics, but I'll just give you my 2 cents based on skimming through your post.

First of all, I don't know why anyone would want to gate the drums. You say it sounds like shit because that's what gating does. The drum kit is a KIT. Don't worry about some bleed.

Most of the rest of your statements, like "The snare sounds like shit" or "When I do tom/kik fills, it sounds too bassy, etc..." are hard to answer without listening to your kit. But, in 99% of cases, it's because of tuning, not mics. You have to get the kit to sound good before putting a mic anywhere near it.

More isn't better. You should be able to get a good drum sound with 4 mics (snare, kik, 2 overheads). Many drummers do. Any more mics should be there to get the sound more in-your-face, but if you can't get it 95% there with 4 mics, more mics won't help.

My suggestion would be to read "Greg's Guide", which is a sticky at the top of the drum forum. Then, read it again. Once you've done that, read it one more time.

 

[astoebe]

I agree with the post above. The snare will not sound good tracked unless when you hear it in the room you think, "that sounds amazing." If you ever play with a drummer who knows great drums/tuning, you will understand this. Again with the muddiness, it could be tuning. If you are looking for more attack, a different beater or stick type could help too.

As far as the extra mic, I would set everything up and record a little, then see where you need some help. I would be tempted to use it for a room mic, but if you really need more ride or hats, use a mic for that. The 991 would be a good choice for the hats or the ride I would think. I don't think you need to mic the snare underneath, but it can sound good if you have the extra input.

Gating can sound good sometimes, but it can sound really weird too, I usually don't gate that often.

So to sum up, make sure you have some good heads on those drums and tune them carefully until they sound exactly like you want. From there play around with some mic placement, figure out where you want the extra mic, and you should get something pretty usable. I haven't really listened to those songs you are talking about, but I would assume from the style that they used some limiting and or compression on those drums too, so keep that in mind when mixing. Just my opinion!

 

[Audi0Fr3ak]

You're pretty covered by the other two on most things, I just want to throw in a few pieces of advice.

I looked into the songs a bit, listened to the drums... most of it is going to come with tuning them and a drummer who understands technique. Without that education, gates, compression, everything would be worthless. "You can't polish a turd" as they say.

In metal, they use a lot of compression, and often they use gates. In your case, I'd say play with the gates. Careful with them though, they are easily overused. p, me when you get trying the gates, i can try to help you with that, ive had a bit of experience using gates on metal tracks.

I love the two mic snare technique thingy, wouldn't suggest it for metal. the ring from the actual snare takes from the punchiness of the initial attack, or so ive found. like they said, its alll about trial and error, and spending more time setting it up and listening to everything in different places than recording what sounds best. hit me up when this project gets closer, im intersted to hear what you end up with

 

[gtrfreak182]

As forAudi0Fr3ak, thank you for the offer on gates. The issue I'm having for gates is making it fade out the toms rather than actually killing the sound immediately. I know there is a way to do this without automation.
As for everyone else, thank you for your suggestions. I don't think tuning is the problem, however, being that the drum set sounds great in the room. I'll try setting up a room mic and seeing how it changes the sound. Yes, it is all about experimentation. I'll post an mp3 with a sample drum track probably this Friday, hopefully you guys can give me suggestions from that.
Peace.

 

[RAMI]

The issue I'm having for gates is making it fade out the toms rather than actually killing the sound immediately. I know there is a way to do this without automation.

Yes, it's called knowing how to tune the toms so that you don't need gates to have them "fade out" naturally.

I don't think tuning is the problem, however, being that the drum set sounds great in the room.

It can't sound that great if you find the toms need to be faded out, or that the snare doesn't sound good miced, or that when you do tom/bass drum fills, it sounds muddy and too bassy, as you mentioned. These are "SOURCE" problems. If it's not the kit, it's the room, which is just as, if not more, important than the kit.

You listed your equipment, but didn't mention anything about how your room's treated. You can't list a bunch of pro recordings as examples of how you'd like to sound without realizing how important room treatment is, or else you're dreaming in color.

I'm not trying to bust your balls, but don't be in denial. You're hoping that gadgets and tricks will fix something that needs to be fixed at the source. There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to put 4 mics on the kit and have it sound really good. Anything else should enhance the sound, but shouldn't be depended on to save your sound. I know you hate me now. but one day...........

 

[gtrfreak182]

Yes, it's called knowing how to tune the toms so that you don't need gates to have them "fade out" naturally.

I know, they do fade out naturally, I was talking about the sound of the gate. Yes in reality they fade, but i am referring to the idea of the gate slowly lowering the volume of the track after each sound is made, so after i hit a tom, the gate fades the track rather than immediately muting it to create a more gradual change rather than an immediate cut of the mic.

 

[jpenns]

I'm not sure you're computing what RAMI's driving at. Why do you need to gate your toms at all? You may find that taking off the gate will easily achieve what you are looking for.

However if it doesn't, every gate should have settings for hold and release that can help make it sound more natural. Try increasing the hold time or release time.