Reconfiguring studio - mixer outputs and cables!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sephnroth
  • Start date Start date
S

Sephnroth

New member
Hi all!
I have at home what I call my "office" - it's half developer pad and half music studio. I program for money but I play music for fun. For years i've had a sorta simple setup:

Two midi keyboards connected to pc via USB (a CME UF5 and M-Audio Oxygen 61)
PC has an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 card (which I now connect the CME to the midi port of as CME do not do drivers for modern windows). I did have a soundblaster X-Fi Music edition for outputs but its aged and I finally got rid of it last week.
I have a yamaha EMX620 powered mixer which has a few bells and whistles such as onboard DSP effects, EQ, phantom power for mics, etc.
I also have a couple of mic's, behringer "super cardioid XM1800S" which I inherrited from somewhere or the other.
Finally I own a behringer v-amp pro for my electric guitar which I used to pass into the EMX but I have leant that effects unit out and for now put unamped guitar straight into EMX and run native instruments guitaramp on pc for software amplification etc.

connections: Mics go into mixer via XLR cable, mixer goes into the audiophile soundcard, keyboards either usb or midi into audiophile, v-amp is missing so instruments straight into mixer also.

Anyway, long story short all i've ever really used this setup for is messing around in reason/razor with the keyboards or messin around with my guitars and then using the mics to voice chat people. But my wife sings and she asked the other week for the first time "can we record a song together?" and I thought yes, why not, pretty sure I got all the business, lets go for it.

I used Audacity to record straight from the line in, played some acoustic guitar and my wife sang. Then we listened back and.. it was pretty awful. The sound quality seemed really poor. I spent ages messing around with the quality of the audiophile device, setting it to max and trying again and still so bad. I plugged headphones into the mixer's PHONES jack and there it sounded perfectly good. Clear, nice vocals - not astounding I guess but fine for our purposes and 1000x better than what the pc was recording.

In the end I put it down to the rubbish cheap cable that was carrying EMX to audiophile. Dont laugh: an adaptor in the MAIN OUTPUT jack convering 3/4" headphone to 3.4mm and then some cheap 3.4mm to double RCA cable (probably from a supermarket) to take it to the soundcard.

Now I'm posting this because I decided as someone who can solder I was going to invest in some quality cable and make up some proper studio-grade audio cables. Inspecting my EMX mixer and reading the manual (for the first time ever) I quicky confused myself as to what type of cable I wanted to make and where to connect it on the mixer. There is a REC OUT L and R RCA output on the mixer that the manual suggests for tape decks and md recorders (...) and I wondered if THAT is what I should use instead of the main output? Experimenting with it and I found the output from REC OUT to be quite quiet though. Should I be making up RCA cables for the rec out or large headphone style jacks for main out or monitor out etc? I've been googling and looking at diagrams of so many different setups (none seem to want to mention a computer...) that I've just TOTALLY confused myself.
 
Try hooking up from the Yammie's 'REC OUT' jacks to your 2496 card. You've probably got an impedance/strength mismatch using he headphone out.
 
I cannot find a manual for that EMX mixer. I can find a specification and that gives the Main and Monitor outputs as +4dBu* and assuming that is Operating Level , signals well in excess of that can be expected if the mixer is run at its optimum gain staging. IIRC the maximum input for the 2496 (have 3) is some +8dBu and so some attenuation is useful (at the 2496 end) if you want to run the mixer at normal levels.

*This is specified into a 10k load but no clue is given as to the actual output impedance or if any of the outputs are balanced. I have an A&H zed10 that feeds balanced lines 5mtrs to a 2496 via a pair of OEP 1:1 line bridging transformers within 1.5mtrs of the PC. Also incorporated with the traffs are a pair of pots (multi turn types) that allow accurate setting of levels and thus allow the Zed's meters to align with the DAW software meters.

If you are having a "re vamp" it might be worth setting up a similar regime? I would also suggest different software from Audacity. Reaper is the top reccy and very cheap.

With a bit of care over gain staging and possibly room treatment your setup should be capable of very acceptable results.

Dave.
 
Thanks Mark...Aha! The blessed thing is MONO!

Really not what you want for home recording. You have some options/decisions Seph'. Buy a more modern mixer, the Behringers such as the X802 are decent. Better would be my zed 10.

Or go for a proper Audio Interface and you will not find a better one for the money than the Native Instruments KA6, especially in your position since the KA would give you two mic channels but you could also feed the mixer into its other two line inputs. The 2496 becomes a bit redundant but it is always handy I feel to have a "self contained" music PC?

Dave.
 
thanks so much for your time replying to this :) I have found a manual online for my 620 at: YAMAHA EMX620 OWNER'S MANUAL Pdf Download.

Are you sure its completely mono? That makes some sense, there is no pan knobs for any of the inputs or outputs (I've never actually noticed that before..) but what doesnt make sense to me is on page 9 of the manual where it talks about the REC OUT phono jacks it says:

REC OUT—OUTPUT jacks
The REC OUT—OUTPUT phono jacks output the MAIN bus signal prior to the 7-band graphic equalizer and MASTER level control, and can be connected to the stereo inputs of a cassette, DAT, or MD deck for recording.

Whats the point of connecting it to stereo inputs if the whole source is mono? x_x

I am not against a usb audio interface however. I was hoping to buy some sort of compressor just for my wife's vocals so I can try and do a "good job" for her but I wont be doing that if I have to pay out for an interface instead :P Maybe there is some sort of software compressor I can use with Reaper if I start using that for recording as suggested?

However to completely replace the audiophile it will need at least one midi input for my CME UF5 - there will never be a win7+ usb driver for that thing sadly :P
 
For the record: I just went ahead and bought the NI Komplete Audio 6 as recommended. It's going to be beans on toast for dinner here for a while but I think it's worth it :P
 
There is no paradox in a mono device having a "stereo" output. The resultant recording (on a cassette say) would be double mono and therefore deliver a central, phantom image. If you have ever used a crap mic into the crap mic input of a laptop and made a recording with the crap On Board Soundcard, THAT will be double mono.

Yes, there is a software compressor in Reaper, probably quite a good one, not something I do (Dyed in the wool Samplitude man I!) But really speaking you might not need a comp'? You should be recording 24bits/44,1kHz and at an average level of -18 even -22dBFS with peaks no higher than about -8dBFS. Do than and the vocals will never clip and you can adjust dynamics later without losing the original track.

I cannot recommend the Native Instruments too highly. The 2496 card (as with most old PCI cards) had very low latency. You will struggle to duplicate that with today's crop of sub $500 AIs. The KA6 is however actually BETTER than my 2496 for latency and about 5dB quieter.

And yes! It has MIDI as ANYTHING that calls itself an audio interface should IMHO!

Dave.
 
The suggestion for Reaper is a good one. Get away from Audacity. It's a great tool for file conversion, but sucks for multi-track recording. Use the processing plugs in Reaper; they are quite good. You won't need to buy outboard equipment and you can save money. When you find you're happy with Reaper, be sure to pay for the license. We don't condone stealing at HR, even software. As a programmer, I'm sure you can appreciate that. :)

Good on you for getting KA6. Not my first choice, but it will serve you well and you will have the ability to spew out some quality recordings with it if everything else is in place. With the KA, you won't need to use you soundblaster card, except for casual listening. Toss the mixer while you're at it. :D (seriously)

Didn't see what you had listed for monitors, but be sure to get some if you don't already.

About cables, don't spend too much money on cables. Those companies that tell you to spend tons of money on oxygen free cables, or what-have-ya, are just selling snake oil. Hopefully you know that already.

Your mixing room is one of the most important part of your processing chain. There are lots of discussions on room treatment and it needs to be considered at some point. Not as expensive as it may seem if you can DIY it.
 
If you don't get along well with the Reaper demo.. and you're using a Windows 7 or newer PC you could take a look at Cakewalk's Music Creator 7, it has some limitations like a max of 32 audio tracks, 8 instrument tracks, 128 MIDI tracks, and a max of 8 audio inputs/outputs, but that's fine for a basic beginner home recording setup.

I think it is still on sale at the Cakewalk Store for 20 bucks.

https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Music-Creator
 
Morning Chilli. I would be very interested to know WHAT your first choice would be for an AI with 2 mic/line/instr inputs 2more balanced line ins and 4 balanced line outs plus MIDI and S/PDIF. Very low latency and super stable drivers well under £200?

Nothing springs to my mind! I too had wondered about monitors.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Morning Chilli. I would be very interested to know WHAT your first choice would be for an AI with 2 mic/line/instr inputs 2more balanced line ins and 4 balanced line outs plus MIDI and S/PDIF. Very low latency and super stable drivers well under £200?

Nothing springs to my mind! I too had wondered about monitors.

Dave.
Click to expand...

Hi Dave,

I wouldn't be looking at all those features. Don't need SPDIF or a midi interface. Nor do I need to limit myself to $200USD (don't know how to get the English pound sign!!).

I have the UAD Apollo Duo, an older Tascam US-800 and the focusrite 2i2. I previously had Lavry Blacks with a Focusrite Twintrack Platinum Mic pre. With that, I used SPDIF to bring the digital into the computer. Worked great and the mic pre had opto-compressors which had a nice unique sound to them.

The Apollo Duo is great gear. It has really simplified my studio. Extremely low latency and I love the UAD plugs. They have new features where some plug-ins can control the built-in mic pre in the Apollo. I use the US-800 for remote recordings when I do school events. I bought the 2i2 more so out of curiosity and don't really use it much. I might eventually give it someone in a pay-it-forward opportunity.

Cheers,
 
Chili said:
Hi Dave,

I wouldn't be looking at all those features. Don't need SPDIF or a midi interface. Nor do I need to limit myself to $200USD (don't know how to get the English pound sign!!).

I have the UAD Apollo Duo, an older Tascam US-800 and the focusrite 2i2. I previously had Lavry Blacks with a Focusrite Twintrack Platinum Mic pre. With that, I used SPDIF to bring the digital into the computer. Worked great and the mic pre had opto-compressors which had a nice unique sound to them.

The Apollo Duo is great gear. It has really simplified my studio. Extremely low latency and I love the UAD plugs. They have new features where some plug-ins can control the built-in mic pre in the Apollo. I use the US-800 for remote recordings when I do school events. I bought the 2i2 more so out of curiosity and don't really use it much. I might eventually give it someone in a pay-it-forward opportunity.

Cheers,
Click to expand...

Ah well! I was not talking about "HR for Lottery winners"! I am very happy with my 8i6 (don't use that much tho' either) but the 2i2 has, IMHO , been more a result of hype marketing than a good value AI. The device HAS suffered a few driver issue. Early versions had appalling low HZ headroom and it is not great even now. No MIDI, no digital, only 2 ins and outs...You are paying a lot for pretty lights and a Name IMHO.
Much is made of F'rite's pre amps but those in the KA6 are every bit as good and so are those in the (much cheaper with MIDI!) UR22. Even the very low cost Alesis i02 has very acceptable pres and vastly more features than the 2i2.

BTW Mr C, just call 'em "quids" we will all know what you mean! (I did find a trick for the Euro sign but this old, med ridden brain has lost it)

Oh! And re donating kit? I did that with my i02. I guess the guy is spending every waking minute with it because I have heard Jack since!

Dave.
 
me again! the KA arrived and so far i've RESISTED plugging it in whilst I clean up my office and have a literal rearrange :P Whilst I was doing my chores I started thinking about monitors and thats why I'm back again...

No, I don't have any. As I said in first post, music has always been "for fun" - except back in the day when I used to attempt some OC Remixes I've never really shared anything I've made and barely ever bother to press record. As such whatever headphones I have on or my pc's main 5.1 (which actually has kinda nice satellites and a decent sub) has done the job quite well - because its only me that hears it and it doesnt leave the studio!

That however may start to change. I've had a search around and I now understand WHY monitors are needed to mix/master and I've also seen what it costs even for budget so I know I cant afford any for a little while, the KA was all my pocket money gone XD If I start saving my pennies (which are few and far between!) where would you recommend STARTING with monitors?

The closest thing I've got is in the living room I have two, rather large, Castle Acoustic Conway IIA speakers. They are kinda nice, but really quite large! I never bothered to look them up before but searching the net I find they are highly rated and when new were actually ridiculously expensive.. I picked them up for £30 from a CD store that was closing down 5 years ago. But lol they still are not monitors if I understand the definition right so I dunno how trust worthy the sound would be? Currently they are just connected up to my TV via an amp, but my wife has been looking for an excuse to get them out the living room for at least a year as shes got fed up of having the large things in her fav room XD
 
Castle Acoustics were in the vanguard of a handful of British speaker makers such as Spendor, Harbeth, Rogers and others that produced ACCURATE speakers, more in line with monitor design than the "boom and tish" of the (mostly imported) fair. Assuming they are in good order they will make excellent monitors.

The only caveat is their size. I have not been able as yet to get specs' but I would treat them more as "mid fields" rather than the present fad of small nearfields.

BTW..DON'T plug the KA6 in anyway! WTGR. RTFM! You need to install the drivers before connecting the AI. This is pretty standard for all USB interfaces and most other USB kit as well.

Dave.
 
haha, when I say "plug in" I mean "set up" - I wouldnt of just shoved wires in the thing and hoped for the best :)

the speakers are in good condition, they've always sounded good in the other room! The size is a bit of an issue but I'm sure I can find somewhere for them. I remember in Kays (the old CD store that shut down) they were mounted on the walls - I think if I tried that in my house the walls would fall down ;) But you can achieve anything if you believe.. right? ;)

May I clarify on mid fields / small nearfields - is it exactly as it sounds and you mean the CA speakers should be placed further away from me as opposed to on the desk infront of me as small speakers would be?
 
"May I clarify on mid fields / small nearfields - is it exactly as it sounds and you mean the CA speakers should be placed further away from me as opposed to on the desk infront of me as small speakers would be?"

Yes, a bit further away than the 1to 1.5mtrs for NFs. This is especially so since the Castles are 3 way and you need the distance for the three drivers to "integrate".

Dave.
 
Well, it sounds like you have your monitor situation sorted. Now you need to address your room acoustics. Bass Traps and other acoustic treatments. It doesn't have to be expensive if you can DIY it. Best bang for the buck to achieve good mixes.

But take your time. Money is tight and it takes a while to save for non-life threatening extravagances. But, you should put room treatment towards the top of your priority list. I did my whole little cube-shaped studio for about $200USD.
 
quick extra question about speakers - I am at work atm and we do nothing related to music but most employees use here as a dumping ground :P Sat on a shelf gathering dust are a fairly nice looking pair of B&W DM610 speakers. I've had a quick look online on my phone and they seem not bad - not high end but not bad. Is it worth me grabbing these? They'll probably let me have them for a token payment or maybe even free. Any use in studio alongside (or perhaps instead of) the CA's? Failing that they may make good replacements for the CAs I took away from living room :P

About the room: I think this is where I'm going to fail hardest. My room isnt a cube or a rectangle really - the door to the room is in one of the CORNERS creating a sort of diagonal cut. On the left side is a chimley breast (this is a large victorian house split into two flats, I have the top flat) but either side of the breast is a cupboard built into what would otherwise be gaps so to the eye it looks flush. there is a large window on far front wall and my desk is a very large corner desk. Well its three, one corner desk and then a rectangle desk on either side of it. Infact i'll try and attach a photo to post to show you what I mean (photo was taken in middle of lan party, its very messy! most of that clutter is now gone XD)

so in short I have spent all my breaks today reading about room acoustics and speaker placements and I'm lamenting ever managing the perfect setup in here. But I will try!


daveoffice.webp
 
B&W are another mnfctr that I should have listed with the "accuracy" brigade so they would make good near field monitors. Spoilt for choice! Don't forget you will need another stereo power amp if you are going to run both sets? Perhaps check with the distaff side? Never hurts to amass a few Brownie points there!

The room: Some dimensions and a plan drawing however crude would be most helpful. The alcove cupboards? Often the top 1/2 mtr or so is not used, fill with fibreglass insulation (you can leave it in the bags!) Similarly, is the fireplace used/blocked? If open, stuff with FBI.

But I am no acoustician! Others here are pros who will readily advise for free.

Dave.
 
I have a entry level amplifier (Cambridge Audio A1 Integrated Amp) which I've always used for the CA speakers. I don't know if I'd get any milage out of just wiring the B&W speakers in at the same time (I note the b&w's take 4 inputs instead of 2 like the castles) or what the max level of speakers i can put on the amp is.. I quickly looked at the manual and it doesnt seem to mention a max load or anything!

I am heading to the local hospital to visit my father in a minute but when I am back I will see about a room diagram :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top