Really Nice Mic Preamp Suggestions HELP!!!

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theodd

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Hey guys,

This is my first post here although I've been reading along for a couple of weeks now. I have a couple of questions that I haven't seen answered here yet. I'm sure I could dig hader in the archives but I'm hoping some of you won't mind helping me out.

My band and I are planning to quit our jobs and record an album for a few months. We have been collecting gear for quite sometime now while we have been employed and we will be relocating to the stix and living off PBJ's for a few months while we do this thing. Here's the deal:

We are running a Pro Tools rig (002) with a digimax LT to record most of the drums. We have been collecting several decent mics and we feel pretty good about most of the gear. Nice amps, drums, mics, etc...

But here's the problem. This is not our first time doing this. We have two full lengths and an EP behind us. Each recording has been an improvement over the prior but we are still not where we need to be sonically. Usually the formula has been have a friend with a bunch of gear come and track the drums and bass and then we overdub the vox and guitars. But there in lies the problem. Our guitar tones are average at best. They don’t soar, they are one dimensional and at times just noisy. There is just no depth to them. At the same time, the vocals are flat and totally lacking in character. They might be in the “right” place in the mix but no one cares because they are missing that “something”.

I have spent the last few months researching decent mic pres. I really think this might be a large part of the problem. We always have really nice mics running into crappy pres on a variety of boards. I’m looking to make an investment here. But I will only be able to afford one pre that I will run pretty much everything through.

So here’s what I’m hoping I can get you all to help me out with:

If you had to choose ONE mic pre to run 90% of your signals through, what would it be?

Oh yeah, and I have between $500-$1500 to spend (well I don’t have it, but I’ll spend it for nice sounding guitars/vox/everything).

My apologies for the long post. I got a little carried away there…;)
 
I have to assume you're doing more or less "classic rock"?
And that you're recording in a true acoustic environment, because the room is going to have the biggest impact on the sound you achieve.

Now, with a question like the one you asked, you're going to get as many answers as there are people on this board.
Hopefully those people that do chime in and recommend something to you have ACTUAL hands on experience with the gear they recommend.
If not, it all he said/she said crap!

So given that, I can only tell you about what I have in my studio, and let you draw your own conclusions from there.

I have 4 Audix 35012's. These are vintage modules, from British consoles that were made to rival and compete with the Neve 33115's.
They are super clean, class A, very discrete, but the on-board EQ allows you to REALLY shape your sound.
Think API pre meets Neve EQ!
(About $800 - $850 per channel. Quality doesn't come cheap)

I have 6 API 312's. Great on everything! Punchy, tight, and quick! I've added a pair of API 550B's (EQ) to really fine tune room miking.
($550 - $600 per channel for some of the best sounding and most versatile pre's you're likely to hear!)

I have a bank of pre's in my Yamaha O1V mixer. Clean, but pretty bland -- still, I'd have them over the pres in any Mackie mixer. (I think you can get these for about $800, but I doubt its what you're looking for.)

A dbx 286A. It does what its supposed to, but the added lights and whistles of on-board compressor, de-essor, gate, and enhancer, make it a fairly good choice for vocals - sometimes. ($200 or so - one channel)

ART PRO MPA dual mic preamp. Yeah, its a "toob" pre, still, I've gotten good results with it and it'll always have a place in my rack. Just... don't over-drive it.
(Around $350 for 2 channels)

The ones that see the most use are of course the 35102's and the API 312's.
Those 2 would be my recommendation.
If I HAD to CHOOSE, ONLY ONE, I guess I'd go with the 35102's, but they're hard to come by.
If I HAD to RECOMMEND ONLY ONE, I'd say get the API 312's.
 
For a do it all preamp ie. guitars/vocals ect. I would have to say the GreatRiver MP1NV would do the trick..If I had to use just one pre out of the pres I have..And the other pres I have to use are GT Vipre,OSA C's,Grace 101's x2 and The ART Pro MPA ;) Event EMP1 and the regretable Digitech VMP1..The API's are a good bet also..Good luck
 
Michael Jones said:
ART PRO MPA dual mic preamp. Yeah, its a "toob" pre, still, I've gotten good results with it and it'll always have a place in my rack. Just... don't over-drive it.
(Around $350 for 2 channels)
Click to expand...

Damn, I just got one of these for $50. I guess I got a good deal. The damn thing is near unblemished too.

fucanay
 
I doubt it is the preamp. I would wager that mic placement and the original source sounds are the main culprits. I think you need to ensure that those are not the problem, otherwise, the preamp wont do you much. (e.g. A preamp isnt going to breath life into vocals - the singer needs to do that...)
 
Do you have to buy? Why not rent some high-end stuff and give it a spin, see what you like and what does the trick?
 
fucanay said:
Damn, I just got one of these for $50. I guess I got a good deal. The damn thing is near unblemished too.

fucanay
Click to expand...
That is a good deal!
The $350 is new/retail.
But hell, I'd have picked one up for 50 bucks!
It actually has a pretty nice flavor to it, just don't drive the "tube character" to hard, and I think you'll enjoy using it.

This was done with the ART PRO MPA, and a pair of Neumann TLM 103's on a 7'-2" Boston Grand Piano. I think that particular chain delivered a nice, rich tone.
http://artists.iuma.com/site-bin/streammp3.m3u?190193
 
i would rent some hi end pre's and see if the mic pre is really the problem.
or if the problem lies elsewhere. after using much hi end stuff i decided to do my own diy pre's not only to save money but because i realised there was more to it than just the pre. believe it or not you can do a pretty clean pre for 10 bucks of parts. using low noise discreet transistors.
heres an example of hi end >>>> soundclick.com/bmanning take my love song
now heres examples of a 10 dollar pre. now let it be said i used expensive ultra low noise 1nvroothz transistors. >>>> try the songs i'm too old to rock and roll, or up in the sky and there are several others as examples. not really a lot of diff i found. the biggest thing ive found is mic placement and general engineering. i never stop learning.
 
theodd said:
We have been collecting several decent mics and we feel pretty good about most of the gear. Nice amps, drums, mics, etc...
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "nice amps" etc? The reason I ask is because often what might sound "good" live is significantly different from what might get you that "good" sound in a studio. For example, many engineers have gotten their "best" guitar tones using a small tube amp like a Fender Champ and an SM-57. If you're trying to mic a 4x12 and are surprised when you get a different sound, maybe your expectations are unrealistic. I'm just trying to get a little more clarification on what you're using, and what sort of tone you're after. I hope that's helpful.
 
Actually, tomleblanc, you are right on the money with this one. Here is our amp list.

Sunn Model T
Mesa Blue Angel
Mesa F50
Sunn Cab 4X12
Marshal Cab 4X10

The amps sound amazing both live and in the studio. But something happens when we go to "tape". We are definately losing something and gaining a whole bunch of something nasty. They are brittle at times and as a result we are forced to do some surgical EQing. Once in a while we get lucky and hit it right on the money though. We are waiting to get our latest EP back from the mastering house (the Lodge in NYC) so I'll post so you all can hear what I'm talking about.

I think part of it might be mic placement. But it's not like we rush through that phase of it. We spend a lot of time and it always seems like we are "settling" for something that is close enough. You know?

I know we need a pre, but like you all said, we also want to be damn sure that the best possible signal is going into the pre in the first place.
 
(At the same time - keep in mind that a lot of recordings are done using a 4x12 - but I get the point)..once again - I will say its the method to the recording and not the gear if I had to guess
For distortion - record less than you think you should have.
Try using a room mic, or a condenser backed off the grill a couple feet
Try doubling or tripling the guitar parts - stack em up
 
riley357 said:
Do you have to buy? Why not rent some high-end stuff and give it a spin, see what you like and what does the trick?
Click to expand...

Actually, we do HAVE to buy....but not anytime soon. We are quitting our jobs in October. Right now we are writing and playing tons of shows. So I basically have all summer to nail down a few choice peices of gear.

The renting thing is not a bad idea. We are located right outside of NYC so it might be possible to find some place to rent. That's a really good idea actually. I have also heard of store letting you take stuff out of the store into your studio to try. Maybe that would work too.
 
Scinx said:
(At the same time - keep in mind that a lot of recordings are done using a 4x12 - but I get the point)..once again - I will say its the method to the recording and not the gear if I had to guess
For distortion - record less than you think you should have.
Try using a room mic, or a condenser backed off the grill a couple feet
Try doubling or tripling the guitar parts - stack em up
Click to expand...
The last recording we did we basically used an SM57 on the cab and then an octava or C414 backed off the cab a little. On our earlier recordings we would just double up sh*tty sounding tones in hopes that at least they would sound huge (we were young, forgive us). But this time around we really wanted a stripped down sound. Our philosophy was if you can't say it with one guitar (both the playing and the tone) then don't say it. Very little overdubbing took place.

Also, when it came time to mix we almost always threw out the "room" mic on the guitar cab because it sounded like poo. I'm sure, again, that was a user error.

Thanks so much for your comments. They are very helpful.
 
Just curious . . .

What are your aspirations with this?

Are you aspiring to learn and educate yourselves in the hopes of becoming recording engineers?

Or are you aspiring to record a good album?

If the latter, then you'd be much better off spending your money hiring a professional recording engineer, or going to real studio that has one on staff and getting it done the right way.

If your goal is simply to tinker around and fiddle with things in hopes of learning something about sound . . . or perhaps you're interested in becoming a recording engineer someday and the music is secondary, then I guess there's nothing wrong with your current route.

What I'm having trouble understanding is why you would all literally quit your jobs and spend a bunch of time and shell out a bunch of money on a project . . . only to have amateurs (yourselves) engineer it. It just seems like a waste. You don't know what you're doing yet, and it's probably going to sound like shit.
 
Chessrock...

You're going to have to stop mincing words and lay it on the line!

:D

BTW - I agree!
 
theodd said:
If you had to choose ONE mic pre to run 90% of your signals through, what would it be?
Click to expand...

I use my Safe Sound Audio P1's for everything, with a dbx242 eq inserted there's nothing I can't do. Full protection from overloading my converters (I use a Swissonic that's pretty sweet) etc. as well.

War
 
Yikes Chessrock! Those are some pretty big assumptions there. Thanks for the guidance counselor type advice. I'm glad that you were born knowing exactly how to record perfectly balanced tracks everytime. I'm assuming you own one of these studios you speak of? If not, let me qualify a little bit.

We are 24. There are 5 of us. We have recorded 3 records together since freshmen year of college. We live together. We work at big pharma companies in NJ at 9-5's and then we come home and kill ourselves working on the band. We are not the type of band that has a few beers at every Tuesday night rehearsal for the big show in a month. We are more the "every night we are in the studio, or the rehearsal space or playing shows or writing or doing one of the million other things required of dedicated folks in a band". Lots of people do this and we do it too.

I didn't say that our albums sound like sh*t. In my opinion, sonically, they leave something to be desired at times. But we are getting closer with every attempt and people seem to really enjoy them. We are almost there. This is our craft you know? And we are learning everyday....especially lately in these boards.

We have tried the studio thing and it doesn't work for us. We are always rushed and end up unhappy with the results. We want TIME to develop parts/songs, to experiment, to have fun together, to not have girl friends/friends/jobs/distractions around. We may never have this chance again. We have been working/saving for two year straight preparing. But like you said, why bother right? It will probably just sound like sh*t.

My goals are to "tinker & fiddle" with recording gear as a profession. The lights are really pretty and I like pressing buttons. It's very satisfying. One of my goals is to own and operate a small recording studio. I have been collecting gear now for some time. I have worked on several projects but because of the "job" I have not been able to dedicate all my time to it. So much is still to be learned. But it's not just me. Most of the guys in the band are all heavily into recording too. We love it. So handing off our biggest album yet to someone we don’t' know just because they could make us sound like Puddle of Mudd isn't our bag really.

There are tons of bands that do what we want to do. Grandaddy, Wilco, Pedro the Lion all record themselves in their houses, not in million dollar studios. You show me an album that sounds better then Sophtware Slump. If we had record company $$$ I’d agree with you and let the pros handle it. But we don’t and this way maybe someday I’ll be a pro right?

But hey, we are WAY off topic now. Let’s get back to the gear talk.

All I really want to know is if you had to choose one pre to run 90% of your signals through what would it be?

All the posts above have been really helpful and I have been researching everything you guys talked about. Thank you so much. Keep em coming!! I can’t wait to try a few of these units out!
 
chessrock makes a great point

But if I had to run all my signal thru a pre from the ones I have it would definitly be the A-Designs MP-2r super clean to a lil colored so you got flavors and sounds pretty flat unless you drive the tube then the lower freq harmonics become more present...you can find the A-Designs MP-2 anywhere around from 1250-1900 it when up in price recently but you may find some places with old stock or a used one being sold

as for RNP too much top and not enough bottom for me to track everything thru it $ 500 2 channel

mackie pre's only good for synth DI's if you need extra inputs...
 
Nice! I'll check out the MP-2! Thanks Teacher! I know it's a really tough call. All of you guys with studios probably have really nice gear to chose from. This is a big decision for us because it's the last peice of gear we will "need" for this project and it will shape how much of the project sounds. I'll be spending the coming months practicing different recording techniques to get the most out of the current gear list we have.

Thanks again.
 
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