real drums, electric drums, or button pushing?

G

guitardude520

New member
So I have been trying to make some decent drum loops in ableton without any success... They are either generic sounding, or I don't know... missing that special something. I am now looking to possibly invest in a drum set to make drum loops. My question is if I should get a real drum kit, an electric drum kit, or if I just don't know what I'm doing in ableton and need help with technique and midi assignment. I would like to be able to do this with ableton and my apc40 midi assigned to some drum sounds, but only if it is possible to get truly great drum sounds... Does anyone have a video or setup like this they use? Perhaps give me a little knowledge of your process? Otherwise, should I get a drum kit and mic it? Should I get an electric kit and just send it to the DAW? Perhaps some brands, the budget is about $500 right now... Thanks in advance to anyone with some knowledge, I'm just a guitarist trying to make some decent backing drums for writing and jamming solo...
 
500 bucks is pretty thin for a real kit and mics, or an e-kit. If you just want basic drum tracks, use a programming software like ez drummer or something similar. Recording actual drums with good results takes a lot of time, patience, and trial and error.

But then again, nothing compares to real drums really played by a real person. :)
 
Greg_L said:
But then again, nothing compares to real drums really played by a real person. :)
Click to expand...

X10

- in a pinch EZdrummer is a great app, but i use it to replace a real drummer playing e-drums via midi - it has some nice beats in it though for writing purposes
 
Greg_L said:
500 bucks is pretty thin for a real kit and mics
Click to expand...

Not to mention a soundcard with 8 inputs. Plus, going through all that effort just to make drum loops isn't worth it. Stick with programming drums. Addictive drums, EZ drummer, BFD, are all pretty common.
 
You can find a used e kit for less than 500.

The problem with real kits is that you have to have:

Enough mic pres
Decent enough mics
Cables for all of those mics
Stands for all of those mics
The kit can't be a piece of shit
The cymbals can't be a piece of shit
The heads have to be replaced regularly
 
Guitargodgt said:
You can find a used e kit for less than 500.

The problem with real kits is that you have to have:

Enough mic pres
Decent enough mics
Cables for all of those mics
Stands for all of those mics
The kit can't be a piece of shit
The cymbals can't be a piece of shit
The heads have to be replaced regularly
Click to expand...
...And a good room
And a good drummer that can actually groove to a click.
 
I appreciate all the feedback. I have a motu interface, but only 2 mic preamps... I have access to drum mics, but without the preamps, pretty much worthless. I downloaded ezdrummer plug in, and it sounds WAY better then the presets in ableton. I think it will work with some practice. I think I am eventually going to try and learn drums though, and eventually get more preamps to record that way. I would like to just record over an hour a bunch of drum petterns I come up with, then cut it up, and use it for the base rhythm while creating some songs... I think I can increase my budget to about $1k, but that would be the limit. I will probably buy used, unless some of you don't recommend that for drums for some reason. Now I am looking for what type of kit I would need for Jazz, blues, reggae, and classic rock/funk...? Thanks again in advance for all the help guys!

One more thing... I really don't know about cymbals... I have seen kits with 1 or 2, all the way up to what looks like 15 or so! What is the main difference between cymbals?
 
guitardude520 said:
One more thing... I really don't know about cymbals... I have seen kits with 1 or 2, all the way up to what looks like 15 or so! What is the main difference between cymbals?
Click to expand...

Jeez, there's like a million gajillion differences between cymbals. Here's the basics:

Ride cymbal - usually large, heavy, and used opposite the hi-hats. That steady ping-ping-ping sound you hear in songs is usually the ride. They can be very articulate or mega trashy depending on how you play it. Most of these vary from 18-24 inches.

Crash - Usually a few inches smaller and thinner than a ride cymbal. That quick single accent "pshhhh" that you hear on downbeats, changes, or whenever is usually a crash cymbal. They usually aren't played steady like a ride or hi-hats, but you can if you want. The sky and your budget is the limit on these things. Some people don't use any, some use just one, some people have ten. They usually go from around 14-20 inches.

Hi-hats - These are the two smaller cymbals stacked oppositely on top of each other on a stand and they can be opened and closed with a foot pedal. These probably get played the most unless you're playing surf or jazz music. You can get a lot of sounds and textures with the hats. They usually go in the 12-15 inch range.

Splash - Simply a small crash cymbal for really quick and bright accents. These are usually 6-12 inches.

China - A strangely shaped, usually large-ish crash/accent cymbal that looks like it's bending in on itself. It gives a quick, trashy sound for accents or can be "ridden" like a ride. Typically 16-20 inches.
 
I've never seen a 15-cymbal-rig-drummer pull the trigger on all 15 in one song. Point being, the dudes you see with 4+ cymbals are doing one of two things: show-boating a huge looking kit...or....having a song list so diverse that he actually feeds a bunch of different sounds into his groove.

Like that other guy said, you can go dark, you can go light and tinny. You just need to go bang some tin to find the sound you like.

If it doesn't sound right to you, the rest is all bullshit.
 
How about Drums on demand. Before I got a real acoustic set & Mics etc Drums on demand was the answer for me. The loops are acidized 24 bid so can be adapted to any BPM
 
getuhgrip said:
I've never seen a 15-cymbal-rig-drummer pull the trigger on all 15 in one song.
Click to expand...

I think it's time to be "that guy."

Neil Pert, man!
:D

To supplement Gerg's post, Death metal is another genre that can use the ride cymbal instead of the hi-hat. (e.g. Amon Amarth)
Also, you can play steadily on the crash like a ride or a hi-hat, but you probably shouldn't! It very rarely matches the music very well, and unless everyone involved is really good at what they're doing, it really clutters up the mix.
 
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VomitHatSteve said:
Also, you can play steadily on the crash like a ride or a hi-hat, but you probably shouldn't! It very rarely matches the music very well, and unless everyone involved is really good at what they're doing, it really clutters up the mix.
Click to expand...

Meh. Depends entirely on the player, size of the cymbal and the genre. A thin crash with a fast attack can really cut through a mix without getting too "wash-y". Happens all the time in rock music.
 
Greg_L said:
But then again, nothing compares to real drums really played by a real person.
Click to expand...

True. :)

To be honest, I was never much of a fan of the rock drum kit.... all that bashing and crashing ... was it really all necessary? But I felt that if I was going to try and write songs then I should at least find out a bit more about drums and percussion, so I took a few drum lessons. Well.... what an ear and mind opener that was!

Sitting next to an experienced professional drummer with a half way decent kit, and being able to not just hear what he was doing but feel it was a real treat. I could rave on here for a while about the pleasure of hearing such crisp, tight and accurate playing, and how much 'voice' and 'personality' the things had when played properly. But if you're drummers then I don't need to explain do I... :cool:

The conclusion that I came to was that either I'd badly misread drums, or that rock drums had been poorly served in the past, either by the quality of the production on recordings or perhaps the difficulty of getting the essence of drums across through the sort of mediocre speakers you get in cars, ordinary stereos, radios, etc. Maybe it was both?

Sadly, I don't have the time or cash to buy a decent kit or learn to play it properly, so I'll be taking other roads. I have a Roland TD-4 and a variety of plug-ins and drum programs that I can drive - including the Garritan World Instruments, which has a lot of interesting percussion from all over. I think that for my purposes (which mostly revolve around playing guitar and writing songs) I'll be able to get 'good enough' results.

But I still suspect that, even though most listeners probably would never notice, there will always be that extra little something missing....

Either way I'm looking forward to some drum exploration and general adventures in percussion over the next few years.

Chris
 
Hakea said:
True. :)

To be honest, I was never much of a fan of the rock drum kit.... all that bashing and crashing ... was it really all necessary? But I felt that if I was going to try and write songs then I should at least find out a bit more about drums and percussion, so I took a few drum lessons. Well.... what an ear and mind opener that was!

Sitting next to an experienced professional drummer with a half way decent kit, and being able to not just hear what he was doing but feel it was a real treat. I could rave on here for a while about the pleasure of hearing such crisp, tight and accurate playing, and how much 'voice' and 'personality' the things had when played properly. But if you're drummers then I don't need to explain do I... :cool:

The conclusion that I came to was that either I'd badly misread drums, or that rock drums had been poorly served in the past, either by the quality of the production on recordings or perhaps the difficulty of getting the essence of drums across through the sort of mediocre speakers you get in cars, ordinary stereos, radios, etc. Maybe it was both?

Sadly, I don't have the time or cash to buy a decent kit or learn to play it properly, so I'll be taking other roads. I have a Roland TD-4 and a variety of plug-ins and drum programs that I can drive - including the Garritan World Instruments, which has a lot of interesting percussion from all over. I think that for my purposes (which mostly revolve around playing guitar and writing songs) I'll be able to get 'good enough' results.

But I still suspect that, even though most listeners probably would never notice, there will always be that extra little something missing....

Either way I'm looking forward to some drum exploration and general adventures in percussion over the next few years.

Chris
Click to expand...

Yeah I had a similar eye opening experience when I got my first set of monitors you can actually hear how stuff is supposed to sound! I think the quality of audio is getting better but its a lot like movies imo. I mean you record some drums way back when and you have to modify things to get it to mix/fit right blankets, tape, etc. and in that you develop a sound like a bass drum having that tight punch complete drop in 500hz-1khz instead of a "woof". Over time people improve in fidelity but they still want that "sound" so people are kind of taking a step back and trying to make drums sound a way they don't actually sound instead of just capturing the sound. Think of new movies and how much makeup they have to pour on now and be careful with the camera angles because the definition is so much better you can see every pore. I mean I play in a hard rock metal band and the bass drum is completely triggered in our live shows it has to be bass drums don't really sound like that its the sound everyone likes. =p Its like all the bands that come over and want to record but they don't want to use my cabs or my techniques they say "we have our own sound" they love their sound and they want me to just record it. I record it and they say "why does this sound like shit?" and I say "cause you guys sound like shit!"
 
I was in the same position and opted to buy my brother's old kit from him. I record it using one or two Behringer XM1800S mics into an M-Audio MobilePre interface and Pro Tools 8, which I can use to make my recordings into loops. It's a bottom line budget set-up that captures a drum recording that my friends and I are quite happy to jam to and freestyle over.... click the link in my signature to hear an example (post-production, for better or worse). If you're after a different sound a budget set-up with a real kit is still not out of the question, if you do a bit of net surfing you'll find plenty of examples of kits recorded with only a few well-chosen mics and the right placement and sound insulating. IMO I'll take a real kit and a budget recording over e-drums or programmed drums every time, but of course in the end it's up to you.
Don't forget that drums are ridiculously fun to play :)
 
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