Questioning my sanity

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spleen

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Thanks for this wonderful forum. It has been most enlightening. However, I need a tremendous amount help/advice, as I am loosing my mind. Without giving my life history, I am in the same boat as many. I am a musician, not a recording engineer. I began home studio recording out of necessity, not for love of gear, knobs, or effects. I saw many collegues wasting valuble time and money in "professional" recording studios, often times with disasterous results. So, I decided to invest in my own recording gear, and do it all myself (an idea I'm beginning to regret). As far as gear, I have a simple analog Mackie24X8, 3-ADATs, Lexicon and Alesis effects, several compressors, a mic-pre amp, and a AT large-diaphram condenser mic. A simple setup I tought would yield at least demo-quality material. I thought I understood the basics of multi-track recording, but I'm obviously lost, as the live recordings of my band made at a gig with stereo cardidoids sound better than the shit recorded in the studio.

At the track level, my problem comes down to eq. I can't get centain instruments to sound good, especially the vocals. The vocals always sound like they're in a tunnel, or shouted through a megaphone. If I solo the vocal, I can get it to sound good, but once added back to the mix it will sound "tunnelly." The vocal should be warm, yet crisp. Adding low-mid to warm it up will serve to make it woofy, not warm. Adding highs don't make it crisp, it makes it tinny. Apparently, I'm not adding the right frequencies, but I've damn near broken the parametric sweep knobs off the vocal channel trying to find them.

At the mix level, the entire mix sounds like sonic soup. It seems that when I listen to a professional recording, the individual intruments are clear and have a distinct spacial place. My mix sounds muddy, for instance the piano and the guitar are mixed evenly, but I can not hear either distinctly. I am assuming that this is because they are occupying the same spectral frequencies, but how do I know which ones? I'll try to fix this by maybe brightening guitar eq, to pull it out of the mix, but to do so makes the guitar itself sound like shit.

At the finish level, I'll play my recordings on my home stereo and they sound dull, lack punch and luster, are devoid of spacial information. Adding more reverb seems only to muddy the sound not to add more spacial perspective. Everything sounds midrangey. Vocals lack "presence." Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg!

This rant should prove that I am going insane. I'm beginning to question my understanding of the basics of this process. I am ready to sell my gear and return to a studio at $80.00 an hour.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
The Mighty Spleen
 
You're not going crazy. I think we all experience that crap when starting recording.

First question:
What kind of a monitoring system are you working with?

H2H
 
It sounds like you have some mic positioning problems (this causes the "tunnely" sound). This is an artifact of phase displacement.

I also read you doing a lot of "adding" frequencies, when you need to be cutting frequencies. Especially if when you are adding these frequencies at more than a few dB. If you need to add more than 6dB to a track there is something wrong with the track to begin with.

When you say the entire mix sounds like "sonic soup" that tells me you have conflicting frequencies. You need to cut, cut, cut. Additionally it sounds like your Q is set too wide and is affecting too many frequencies.

Reverb is a thing to avoid like the plague. I would turn all reverb off while mixing. Nothing screws up a mix like non-judicious use of cheap reverb. A common mistake is to use different reverbs on different tracks. This isn't how it works in the real world, so it sounds messed up. In the real world you don't have a large room sound on the drums, a small room on the guitar, and a plate on the vox. Steer clear of the evil 'verb.

Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com

[Edited by Tom Cram on 01-10-2001 at 12:02]
 
Well Yes and No Tom. The EQ comments are quite correct but using differing reverbs (chambers and rooms not reverberation) is an effective way of getting separation between tracks which is one of his problems. I know this is a simple question but are your speakers in phase??
cheers
john
 
I'll jump in the ring...

I'll just echo a few things already stated: You can't fix a poorly recorded vocal by twiddling EQ knobs until they break. If the vox are really that bad, the problem is at the source, I would say. Try some different mic positions, or a different mic, or a different spot in the room, or a different room altogether. Try and get a vocal sound (or any sound, for that matter) as close to what you want it to ultimately sound like in the first place, and go from there.
As far as reverb goes, I think Tom and John are both right, depending on the circumstances. Many great recordings are made w/ different kinds of reverbs within a song, and many are made w/ only one. THe former of course does not occur in the real world, but neither does Michael Jackson's face, and yet there it is. We step outside the real world and craft something completely new. The latter does exist, and makes a recording sound much more natural and real. Both have their applications.
But in the end they have one thing in common: used wrong, they can both kill a mix dead. From where you're at now, I would have to agree w/ Tom: get rid of it for the time being. Make your mix work w/o it first and then introduce it in moderation. THe biggest hallmark of a novice mix is too much cheap 'verb. (I confess to being guilty too many times to count)
Good luck
Aaron
http://www.aaroncheney.com
 
Thank you

Thanks to everyone that replied. And, I'm sorry for the display of unabashed ranting, but I was really frustrated yesterday. Today is a brand new day, and I'm re-energized. I am not going to sell my gear. I'm going to learn how this is done, even if it kills me.

To answer the questions posed:
Monitoring system: Alesis M1 powered near-fields.

Monitor phase: I think my monitors are in phase. How would I know? The polarity on my speaker wiring is correct.

Reverb: I agree with you on getting rid of the nasty 'verb. I am consistently disapointed with the reverb sounds. I believe the sound I'm looking for is not reverb at all, but I don't know how to achieve it. I was listening to the new Phish CD this morning, on my way into work. Now, there is definitely reverb on the drums, but the vocals are very clean. However, they exist in this lush, wide stereo field. The drums are not just quieter than the vocals, I can clearly hear them placed physically "behind" the vocals. This large three-dimensional sonic environment is clearly larger than the cab of my truck. There must be some electro-psycho-acoustic tricks being played on my brain that go far beyond reverb.

I think one of my great limitations with eq is that I don't know frequencies. I see posters on this site refer to cetrain frequencies with religious fervor (sweeten 1.5KHz, cut below 800Hz). I wouldn't know 800Hz or 1.5K if they fell out of the sky. I rarely look at the numbers printed on the board, because they really don't mean anything to me. I eq by the seat of my pants, and as I grope in the dark I end up doing more damage than good. For instance, I'll add lo-mid to a vocal, which helps to warm the vocal sound, but I'm adding frequencies that are where the piano exists. Now, the piano sounds muddy. I'll eq it and step on the guitar. I'll re-eq the guitar and step back on the vocal. I'm hoping someone can point me to some sort of step-by-step methodology I can follow, to avoid these mistakes. Quite simply how should I eq/mix? What instruments should I do first (I always to drums first).

Thanks to you guys, I understand that I've probably been "adding" to much, and I need to focus more on "cutting." But what frequencies, and how much? Is there some sort of specral analyser I can use to "show" errant peaks or troughs. I don't yet have the ears to say "Wow, that vocal has way to much 1KHz!"

Of course, I am quite dependend on eq, and I wish my recorded tracks were better quality. But it seems that I am financially limited in this respect. I can't afford a U87 and a Drawmer. I have added a Focusrite Vocalizer between my AT4033 and the board when recording. This has helped the vocal sound warmer and more saturated. Most everything else was recorded with dynamic cardioids. The ADAT's are mercilessly cold. I always record with eq's off.

Again, any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Spleen
 
I was asking about the monitors just to be sure you weren't using headphones. Sorry. ut you get brownie points from everyone for NOT using them. :)

None of my recording sounded any good until I started using NO EQ at all. The other thing I did was that I realized I needed to track as hot as possible without distortion, but getting ever so close. The hotter the signal, the more I could do with it. Also, not using any effects until after the tracks were down, that was a big point to helping the sound out.

As far as the drums, they are an entire bowl of soup in their own, I'll let a better person field that one. But, as far as vocals go, I have that 4033, and it sounds alot nicer going through a tube pre-amp, you might try that.

Hope something here helps,
H2H
 
I guess my prejudice is showing. I really do hate reverb. And I completely disagree about reverb helping to "seperate" different instruments. Reverb, by definition (pun intended) does exactly the opposite. No offense John, just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

As far as EQ goes, there is a great poster available that shows where every instruments frequency lies. I'm not sure where to get it, I'll research a little. I don't have this poster, I've just seen it. I learned where the frequencies are by schooling and experience. Going through the different freq's in your recording would take a lot more time than I have. I'm not copping out, it really would. Maybe Ed (Sonusman) wants to field this one. I'll try to find that poster for you instead.
 
spleen,
mixing is a real bitch !.
The amount of experience needed is more then it takes to become a doctor (IMHO).
Don't get discouraged. Every mix you do you will learn more and more.

I can tell you that When I made my 300 mix and proudly played it to my mentor
all he could say was "it's almost as bad as the first 299".

As to the problem. I would suggest several things for a start.
First ask yourself "is the arrangment to full to bloated? can Ilean it out a bit.
Then Don't try to get it all to sound good at once.
Focus on the Drums and bass. Do they sound punchy? balanced? do they support the song well?.
From here add the vocals. If you can get this to kick ass your almost home.
Then add the more important stuff stage by stage keeping in mind that they should not ruin the first stage of drums-bass-vocals.

To get into eq on a post is very difficult as it depends on your specific recording. But keep in mind to these basic lines even if they are simplified.

other then what Tom said about cutting, Make sure your lows are spread out evenly between the kick and the bass. Don't boost the same freq on both. Cut on one boost the other.
To much mid -honky to little -hollow sound.
Keep the high's from irritating harsh points.
Make sure the balance on each side is split well -A percussion to much on one side will lopside the mix.

Unlike Tom I like reverb and find it a great tool to add depth. Like Tom and as others have said, Overuse is a major factor in killing the mix.
Do you understand the parameters on your reverb unit and how to use them?.
If you would like I will send you an article I wrote (not polished yet) on editing a Reverb unit that might help you get better use out of a Reverb.

With good use of a reverb-panning delay-eq, you can place an instrument in any point in the room.

As for vocals -A good mic should do the job with out Eq how ever many times you will need to Eq to make it stand out in a mix. DONT listen to them by themself(soloing the vocals) and EQ then !!. What matters is how they sound in the mix !.
To clear the vocals a bit, cut lows like under 80Hz and even up to 150Hz.
Try to use a highpass filter.
You might need to boost a bit of 4-5kHz for a bit of presence.
You might need some predelay to help them clear the mix as well as the choice of a brighter reverb type like a plate rather then a hall. Cut the lows on the reverb return. Don't over do it with the decay time on your reverb unit. Keep it as short as possible.Keep the diffuse parameter LOW ! this will thin the reverb a bit. You can subsitut A delay for a reverb on vocals with excelent results (as well as clean the mix a bit).

NO reverb on the bass. If you MUST, then very little on the kickdrum.

Pan apart comping parts like keys and guitar.

Good compression can help you vocals sit better in the mix. do a search here on the topic.



I hope some of these tips will help


[Edited by Shailat on 01-11-2001 at 15:21]
 
Thanks

Thanks Tom,

That is a great article. I really want to try reducing fundamental frequencies in my mix. I think that will be a great first step to "cleaning" out the sound and creating the seperation between instruments.

Spleen
 
shailat - when a new song starts coming through, everything else goes on hold, I tune lots of ordinary reality out, in order to keep focussing on the song, which is obviously the most important thing happening at the moment. Songwriting's more important to me than sex or food.

Additionally, I *really* like tracking. It's one of the best times of my life. When it isn't working, I get unusually upset, but overall, it's such a shining time. I'm willing to involve food and sex at this point, but only briefly.

But as for mixing, yes I agree with you, I don't like it and only do it if I have to (I've done it once, as I recall). What a boring way to pass the time - listen, adjust, listen, adjust, listen, adjust, listen, wonder, listen again, adjust, change your mind, adjust again, listen again, take a break... Does anybody actually enjoy mixing? I want their numbers.

By the way: "I can tell you that When I made my 300 mix and proudly played it to my mentor all he could say was "it's almost as bad as the first 299". Despite your sense of humor, he must be the hardest man between Istanbul and Karachi - take what he says with a grain of salt. I haven't heard any of your work, but I have a knack - based on some of the things you've posted here, I'd bet real money your work's somewhere on the good > very good scale. I've got just one question: When your teacher said that, was he smiling? Was a smile involved somewhere in the comment?
 
Tom,

Great link, nothing I haven't seen written before, but it was presented in a easy to follow format. I applied some of the suggestions, but still using my ears to make the final adjustments, on a tune I am working on. When I A/B the newly EQ'd mix with the first mix with little EQ(and EQ that was just plain WRONG), the results were incredible. I didn't realize how muddy things sounded. The biggest benefit I found was clarity and punch on the snare, Kick and clearing up muddieness between the bass and rythem guitar. Such a simple and small adjustments in the right places really make a difference in the end.

Bassman
 
Another Tom replies

I would second Tom's comment about SUBTRACTIVE EQ being key to eliminating a lot of the mud in the mix.Every time you turn that EQ knob up you are amplifying the noise associated with the signal.
Much better to "PreQ" the instrument with good mike placement and removal at the mixer of frequencies you don't want anyway.For example bass guitars don't have a lot of high frequency content so you can roll off the top end.Cymbals lack any signal from the mids on down so there is another place to roll off unwanted frequencies.
If you do as much preq-ing as possible you omit a common problem many have of "scooping" great hunks out of the spectrum to create a place for a guitar or vocal to "sit" in the mix.
OK,now the great reverb controversy.It is true that a strictly realistic recording would sound as if everything were in the same room.But we use effects all the time to create unrealistic sounds (like a double tracked guitar with a 5-10 ms. delay panned hard R and L to create a sound so wide that it could never be made in the real world.
Take the famous Phil Collins drum sound with the reverse gate on the verb.They sure as heck didn't use that on the vocals!So multiple verbs on a project certainly aren't unheard of.
Good points all around.Perhaps mike placement is the least understood EQ tool around.

Tom
 
Don't get me wrong folks, I'm not some purist freak who only wants "realistic" reverb. I was trying to illustrate a point, perhaps I was too extreme. Realistically, most mixes I hear from newbies have too much reverb, conflicting reverbs, cheap reverb, and worst of all, lots of recorded room sound with a different reverb added to that room sound...Bleeech!

Then again, maybe I am a purist freak. I did buy my house based on how it sounded more than how it looked (luckily it looks cool too).

Anyway, If you compress your drums you also make the room sound more apparent. If you compress your mic'd guitar track you also make the room sound more apparent, if you compress your vocals you make the room sound more apparent, etc. so on, ad infinitum. So you probably already have ambience on any given mic'd track. If you add reverb (especially full frequency reverb) before you have your tracks compressed, balanced, eq'd, etc. You are just asking for trouble. Additionally, nothing wears a listener out more than an overabundance of psychoacoustic information. This means phase anomolies, HF distortion, and REVERB!

All this said, I do use reverb, but very, very, sparingly. I use band passed delays more. And when I do use reverb I band pass it.
 
someone mentioned sonusman in this post. speaking of him, he hasnt been around in ages? or am i just blind?
 
Dobro,
Only saw your post today as I've been away for a while.

I hadn't ment that mixing is annoying but rather diffcult and takes some years of experience and even then we continue to learn every day.

My mentor had a way with words .... Gentle but deadly. It was also quite a few years ago and today we work side by side.

I had posted some mix's I did about a year ago on the BBS.
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=9745
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=9754
 
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