TelePaul
J to the R O C
So I hear the world is running short on Mahogany.....I have a D15 but I can't tell if it's made from Mahogany or Sapele. Is there a way I can check? I can post a pic if that will help.
muttley600
Banned
The world is not running short of Mahogany. The supply of certain types of Mahogany is becoming scarce for a number of reasons. Mahogany is a genus and within that there are many species. Sapele is one of them. Sapele has become more popular for instrument making as the traditional sources have become less available.
The Brazilian Mahogany that has become prized for instruments has become scarce for a few reasons. The Brazilian government decided long ago to only export timber that has been cut dried and processed in its own national interest. I can't say that I blame them. The amount of exploitation that went on in Brazil (and still does in many countries) was astounding. You now need an export license and certification to sell mahogany from Brazil. I also need to check the certification if I am to buy any. There is still plenty left. Now however it is better managed and has a real economic value to the country of origin.
Timber in larger sizes becomes harder to find as the older and larger trees become scarce. This is also being well managed in Brazil. Well!! managed better. It is estimated that still 80% of the timber logged in Brazil is illegally felled.
Sapele is an African Mahogany. It makes a fine instrument, but is not my favorite but that is a personal view.
The timbers widely used in instrument building that are increasingly under threat are some of the rosewoods and most ebony. Something serious needs to done to preserve these stocks.
My view point as a consumer of tropical hardwoods is that unless these timbers and forests have an economic value to the peoples that live and work around them they will continue to be slashed and burned. This is going on still in many countries as the local people are not allowed to profit from them. Banning the cutting and logging of stocks simply doesn't work. The existing forests must have an economic value. Equally we as consumers must be prepared to pay a fair price and a premium to sustain them. I have visited every part of the world that harvests timbers that I use and would not use any that I was not happy with the way in which they are managed. I make every attempt to buy timber from responsibly managed sources. It is in my interest to do so.
I also hold the opinion that if it takes 200 years to grow a tree that is fit for felling then I should build something that will last as long. It sickens me to see shops and offices skip and dump perfectly good timber because it is out of fashion or they need to bump their outfitting budget. It is irresponsible in the extreme. Rant Over
One more thing to be aware of when talking timber. It is essential to describe any timber by its Botanical or Latin name if you are after a specific type. Many timbers are known by other names in various parts of the world and some completely different timbers bear the same name when they are shipped . For example here in the UK our maple and Sycamore are otherwise described in the US, same goes for walnut, Koa and many others. If you are something very specific, and I always am, you need to give it its Botanic name when ordering or discussing.
Post a picture and I'll be able to narrow down what type of Mahogany you have. A true id can only be made with the aid of a microscope and a good reference book. We should be able to pin it down 95% accurate.
The Brazilian Mahogany that has become prized for instruments has become scarce for a few reasons. The Brazilian government decided long ago to only export timber that has been cut dried and processed in its own national interest. I can't say that I blame them. The amount of exploitation that went on in Brazil (and still does in many countries) was astounding. You now need an export license and certification to sell mahogany from Brazil. I also need to check the certification if I am to buy any. There is still plenty left. Now however it is better managed and has a real economic value to the country of origin.
Timber in larger sizes becomes harder to find as the older and larger trees become scarce. This is also being well managed in Brazil. Well!! managed better. It is estimated that still 80% of the timber logged in Brazil is illegally felled.
Sapele is an African Mahogany. It makes a fine instrument, but is not my favorite but that is a personal view.
The timbers widely used in instrument building that are increasingly under threat are some of the rosewoods and most ebony. Something serious needs to done to preserve these stocks.
My view point as a consumer of tropical hardwoods is that unless these timbers and forests have an economic value to the peoples that live and work around them they will continue to be slashed and burned. This is going on still in many countries as the local people are not allowed to profit from them. Banning the cutting and logging of stocks simply doesn't work. The existing forests must have an economic value. Equally we as consumers must be prepared to pay a fair price and a premium to sustain them. I have visited every part of the world that harvests timbers that I use and would not use any that I was not happy with the way in which they are managed. I make every attempt to buy timber from responsibly managed sources. It is in my interest to do so.
I also hold the opinion that if it takes 200 years to grow a tree that is fit for felling then I should build something that will last as long. It sickens me to see shops and offices skip and dump perfectly good timber because it is out of fashion or they need to bump their outfitting budget. It is irresponsible in the extreme. Rant Over
One more thing to be aware of when talking timber. It is essential to describe any timber by its Botanical or Latin name if you are after a specific type. Many timbers are known by other names in various parts of the world and some completely different timbers bear the same name when they are shipped . For example here in the UK our maple and Sycamore are otherwise described in the US, same goes for walnut, Koa and many others. If you are something very specific, and I always am, you need to give it its Botanic name when ordering or discussing.
Post a picture and I'll be able to narrow down what type of Mahogany you have. A true id can only be made with the aid of a microscope and a good reference book. We should be able to pin it down 95% accurate.
R
RandyW
New member
Interesting, I was just reading the current issue of Guitar Player and there was an article about Sitka Spruce facing extinction. I guess they will be making all guitars out of plastic and composite materials pretty soon.
I remember back in the mid 70's I had one of the first batch of Ampeg Dan Armstrongs guitars, the neck and body were extremely mushing on it. The slightest bit of weight of movement would make what ever you were playing sound like the intro to iron man. I wonder if the new ones are any better.
I remember back in the mid 70's I had one of the first batch of Ampeg Dan Armstrongs guitars, the neck and body were extremely mushing on it. The slightest bit of weight of movement would make what ever you were playing sound like the intro to iron man. I wonder if the new ones are any better.
oDD
Problem to your solution
TelePaul,
I recommend checking out the UMGF.com (Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum) sight. Everything martin. There will definitley be a thread there somewhere regarding the time Martin switched to sapele on the D-15. Or post your own thread -you'll get a quick response. They have quite a large 15 series crowd there.
Later
I recommend checking out the UMGF.com (Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum) sight. Everything martin. There will definitley be a thread there somewhere regarding the time Martin switched to sapele on the D-15. Or post your own thread -you'll get a quick response. They have quite a large 15 series crowd there.
Later
TelePaul
J to the R O C
Thanks fellas, I'll whip out the digital camera this evening.
muttley600
Banned
True, but keep in mind that the introduction of new tonewoods and fitting has been gradual. As such it takes place over a number of years and will not give you a definitive answer even if you knew the date of manufacture. Different timbers have been used side by side in the past and will be again when instruments both leave the factory and reach the outlet.oDD said:
myhatbroke
Cocktacular Member
You would start a thread and post pics of your woodTelePaul said:
TelePaul
J to the R O C
myhatbroke said:You would start a thread and post pics of your wood
You shut the fuck up you fucking dumbass.
muttley600
Banned
I think there is still enough spruce to go round, sitka or otherwise. A lot of times these rumors are spread for spurious reasons. Currently there is "concern" over the stock of Eastern European Oak and fruitwoods. Truth is the Chinese have bought all that the local furniture trade hasn't bagged. They just underestimated demand 5 years ago when planning the felling and drying.RandyW said:
At least those Ampeg's were better than the Aluminum Travis beans
Now there was a neck that would never play in tune. Can't see timber being replaced yet but there are some very interesting ideas and work being done on composite materials at the moment. Only time can be the judge of how they might catch on.
TelePaul
J to the R O C
Is cherry a bad wood to use in guitars? It looks beautiful.
muttley600
Banned
I've built with cherry quite a few times. As you say it can be very attractive and its a joy to work with. Sound wise it is fairly mellow with a good crisp mid range. I say that as a rough guide only there is a lot of variation in the timber from tree to tree and there is also huge difference between European and the stuff from the Americas. Both make good sounding guitars. As does walnut, pear, service, Lacewood and many other fruitwoods. I really think that fruitwoods are often unfairly overlooked.TelePaul said:
Oh and be awre Cherry will darken with age.
3
32-20-Blues
New member
TelePaul said:
I have seen it used to make mandolins, bouzoukis, dulcimers and zithers. I don't know if it is used for guitars or not.
Muttley, far be it from me to question your better judgement on this, but it was my understanding that Sapele was not a mahogany. Sapele and Mahogany are related in the broader family Meliaceae, but that family is then broken down into Genera (genus) and then Species.
Sapele (Entandrophragma cylindricum) is of the same family as Mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla), but of a different genus. The fact that they are both in the same family doesn't make them the same timber; there are hundred of types of timber in the Meliaceae family.
They would be more closely related if they were of the same genus, the way Brazilian Rosewood, Indian Rosewood, Cocobolo and Madagascar Rosewood are of the genus Dalbergia.
That was my impression anyway. Whether or not Sapele can be called African mahogany because of its properties as a tone wood is a seperate matter.
Btw, muttley, I have recently been reading about Willow as a timber traditionally used in the building of Irish harps. Do you have any experience with it as a tonewood?
muttley600
Banned
Technically yes your right. Sapele, Maranti, and many other similar timbers have been classed as Mahogany for years but it's not "true" mahogany. The distinction is often only really of interest to dendrochronologists and the like. That in a way illustrates my point about the classification of timber in general. Its a minefield.32-20-Blues said:
Willow I use exclusively for blocks and linings on acoustics. Except for Archtops as it really isnt up to holding the end pin with the tailpiece tension. For that I use Mahogany (pick a species of your choice ;-)). It has been used in frequently on fiddles. I haven't seen or heard enough to make a judgment tonally. Instinctively it wouldn't be a timber I would consider.
Willow is a relatively light timber and has good stability and small movement in all directions. It also resists cleaving and takes glue well on the end grain. Thats why its perfect for end blocks. Its a favorite of wood carvers and pattern makers as well because it carves well. Ditto its use for cricket bats.
I have no experience of Irish Harp making except long ago I new a maker who turned out some fantastic instruments. haven't seen him for years. What do they use it for on the Irish Harp?
3
32-20-Blues
New member
muttley600 said:
Well, willow is listed in mansuscripts from 12th and 13th centuries as the best building material for the cruit, or the wire-strung Irish harp. Apparently, a musician named Craftiné played a willow harp as early as 500 BC, although this is, obviously, probably more myth than history.
In 1074, the Welsh/Norman historian Giraldus De Barri described Irish musical instruments thus:
One must note that both Scotland and Wales, the latter by virtue of extension, the former by affinity and intercourse, depend on teaching to imitate and rival Ireland in musical practice. Ireland uses and delights in two instruments only, the cithara of willow and the tympanum. Scotland uses three, the cithara, the tympanum and the chorus. Wales uses the cithara, tibiae and chorus. Also, they use strings made of brass not of leather. However, in the opinion of many, Scotland today not only equals Ireland, her mistress, but also by far outdoes and surpasses her in musical skill. Hence many people already look there as though to the source of the art.
I think, in this account, that cithara refers to harp, but I have to investigate it a bit more.
So, there is historical precedent for using Willow. Today, a number of builders use it. The soundbox and soundboard of the harp are usually carved out of one solid Willow log, with a separate Willow board for the back of the soundbox.
muttley600
Banned
Interesting, As I say I have absolutely no experience of the instrument so can't really comment but there is no real reason why willow wouldn't work for a soundbaord quite well. I dare say someone has tried it on a guitar but if they have I've not seen one.
My musical history study was pretty much confined to early fretted instruments such as the lute and viol. They started around 1500 much more modern than your quote I'd love to have the time to explore more of the older stringed instruments one day. I'll have to dig out my Groves and see where it leads me.
My musical history study was pretty much confined to early fretted instruments such as the lute and viol. They started around 1500 much more modern than your quote
I'd love to have the time to explore more of the older stringed instruments one day. I'll have to dig out my Groves and see where it leads me.
TelePaul
J to the R O C
Here's my D 15....so am I sapele or Mahogany?
muttley600
Banned
very hard to tell from that pic. Do you have a close up of the grain. I'd be looking for marked banding in the colour, light then dark about a half inch wide. That would be typical of sapele but still not a 100% id.
TelePaul
J to the R O C
muttley600 said:
Gimme two minutes...
F
Freddy
New member
Can't say for sure, but my guess would be mahogany (sapele has a bit more of a stripe in it normally).
Edit.. found an example..
Edit.. found an example..
