Problem with LOW frequencies too WIDE?

[Svemir]

Hi there,

I'm having an issue, so basically I'm using these SPAN plugin which allows you to see if your mix is balanced, it seems that my mix is building too much low ends on the sides (Left,Right) and not in the center, even if equally balanced L/R, meaning the low ends are too wide.

In the mix with SPAN Plugin when Routing Mid-Side Stereo I noticed something wrong, in the tutorial they say that usually you don't want too much low end on the sides but more in the mid, also the side waveform should be a bit lower of the mid waveform, while in my case as you can see from the graph is the opposite, the low end on the sides overtake the low ends in the mid.

Look at the following 3 screnshoots, There's something wrong,

like if the bass and the kick drums are too wide, and not in the mid, they are equally balanced left and right but not centered.

Someone has any idea how to solve this?

Here's the mix (yes the guitars are too panned left and right but that's how it should be): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cHksDmh6R7iRNWw2RIaCwfCXdzETeWa0/view?usp=sharing

The green is the mid, the red is the side.

Here it's everything together:



Here's the bass only playing, as you can see it pan centered!!





Here's only the drums, look at the kick

 

[JamEZmusic]

You have stereo widening effects on your kick drum? Bass? high pass at 200 (the whole effect, not just the side, I will typically High pass reverb returns/delays at around 200hz to help with buildup/congestion). Is your Kick or bass a stereo file? Either High pass with an EQ on the side channel only at around 60-160hz or make it mono.

Never used Span to analyze audio like you are but it makes sense the sides need to be lower in volume, they are percieved as louder in stereo, but drop considerably in mono by 3-4dbs if hard panned

Edit: Or just high pass on your master like a mastering engineer would probably do as a band aid quick solution. Use an EQ with Mid/Side capabilityes and just high pass. Although sorting it out in the mix would be the better option.

 

[Svemir]

You have stereo widening effects on your kick drum? Bass? high pass at 200 (the whole effect, not just the side, I will typically High pass reverb returns/delays at around 200hz to help with buildup/congestion). Is your Kick or bass a stereo file? Either High pass with an EQ on the side channel only at around 160hz or make it mono.

Never used Span to analyze audio like you are but it makes sense the sides need to be lower in volume, they are percieved as louder in stereo, but drop considerably in mono by 3-4dbs if hard panned

Edit: Or just high pass on your master like a mastering engineer would probably do as a band aid quick solution. Use an EQ with Mid/Side capabilityes and just high pass. Although sorting it out in the mix would be the better optio

So the drums are in stereo cause it's a midi programmed drums and works that way.
The bass though is mono, I just used some amp simulator plugin (Th-U).
There are no stereo widening plugins at all.
I don't think is about cutting the low frequencies, it will cut the sides and the mid as well.

 

[JamEZmusic]

You need to set up your project so you have more control. I use midi drums but still export all my drums to individual tracks, this way I can add samples and align for phase to the OH's, send drums for parallel compression, add reverbs to indivudual drums etc. Yeah, the drums are stereo but that doesn't mean anything. You can route a kick drum to a stereo track but it doesn't mean you're going to get a wider kick, you are just wasting processing power or if you bounce the file down it will be twice as big.

You also need to be using effects on sends so you can EQ out the frequencies that are giving you problems in the low end, now you already said you are not using any stereo effects so that's a moot point now

Your Bass amp simulator is probably widening the lower freqencies and for that you would have difficulty monoizing the low end without midside EQ. just do that, problem solved. If it is even a problem to begin with.

edit: ah you said the bass is mono, as long as you are sure its in mono and not mono>stereo like so many of those amp sims do. Ok then mute low end instruments and see what one is giving you the issue.

The way to sort it is
1: Mastering EQ - High Pass SIDE channel, not Mid. A mastering Engineer would do this.
2: Mono the problematic track (last resort)
3: Solo problematic track then wipe out the stereo information on low end by high passing the side channel. (do this if you can so you can keep the nicer stereo image, best of both worlds)

That's all there is to it

Of course there is a possibility your other stereo tracks are leaking into the low end but assuming your mix is good and everything has it's place in the spectrum you don't really need to do any of the things mentioned above. I almost never mono my low end. because it just already is! But it's only that way because I am mixing with the low end in mind at all times (On a typical full band mix I don't, but with an instrumental mix consisting of 2 guitars, rhythm/lead, the rythm is hard panned L+R so there is going to be stereo spread in the low end, I never bothered to monoize the low end but thinking I may give it a try now you mention it.... see if it works out well, cheers)

Edit2: as a quick double check, to make sure it's not the plugin that is throwing you off. instert a stereo>mono plugin (I don't know how to do this in your DAW sorry) then after that try SPAN. everything should sync up properly and the mix will not lean - 0% stereo spread etc, not ideal but at least it proves it's fixable, you can then just mute/unmute tracks and work your way back towards the problem, honestly.... the problem could be further down the line. it could even be something on your master. But principles remain the same. find problem, use a method mentioned above

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Sometimes I like to pan an instrument with a lot of LF, but I don't like LF to be wide. It's a bit uncomfortable in headphones or earbuds. I use one of two plugins, depending on which studio I'm in. At my friend's Pro Tools studio I use the Brainworx bx_digital V2 and run the high pass on the side channel up to 300Hz. At home I use the TP Basslane freeware plugin.

Basslane | Tone Projects | Unique Audio Plugins

Basslane by Tone Projects. Low Frequency Stereo Control.

www.toneprojects.com

That said, I agree that you may want to go through the mix and correct the problem at its root.

 

[JamEZmusic]

That's good to know, (bouldersoundguy)

I just high passed the sides at around 150 on master..... not sure I like it. wandering if a hpf @ 300hz would sound better. never thought to go that high.

cheers

 

[bouldersoundguy]

That's good to know, (bouldersoundguy)

I just high passed the sides at around 150 on master..... not sure I like it. wandering if a hpf @ 300hz would sound better. never thought to go that high.

cheers

Doing it at 300Hz simulates how your hearing works. Sound below 300Hz reaches both ears at about the same level because lower frequencies aren't as impeded by obstructions (like your head). So it makes things in headphones/earbuds feel more natural, and you can hardly tell much difference in speakers.

 

[JamEZmusic]

That is (really) good to know, thanks for explaining the reasoning behind it. Spot on!

 

[Svemir]

Thanks a lot for the advices! I will try those plugins, also mid/side processing should work. I will also check the problem at the root, as you said maybe the amp sim plugin is causing that.
Need to test.

 

[mjbphotos]

The only time you should use a mid-side plug-in is when you have recorded an instrument that way (2 mics). Otherwise it inverts the phase of one side, and if summed to mono, the track will literally disappear! Maybe you just mean the mid-side setting on SPAN? I've never used that, never saw any need for it. My bass and kick are always panned dead center.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

The only time you should use a mid-side plug-in is when you have recorded an instrument that way (2 mics). Otherwise it inverts the phase of one side, and if summed to mono, the track will literally disappear! Maybe you just mean the mid-side setting on SPAN? I've never used that, never saw any need for it. My bass and kick are always panned dead center.

I think we're talking about two different things. There's converting a mid-side mic recording to stereo, then there's processing the mid and side channels independently. The kinds of plugins I mentioned are the latter. I'm not sure which the OP is referring to.

 

[Svemir]

The only time you should use a mid-side plug-in is when you have recorded an instrument that way (2 mics). Otherwise it inverts the phase of one side, and if summed to mono, the track will literally disappear! Maybe you just mean the mid-side setting on SPAN? I've never used that, never saw any need for it. My bass and kick are always panned dead center.

I mean this

What is Mid/Side Processing?

Discover what mid/side processing is and how to use it when mixing and mastering to create a full, wide mix that sounds more present and has a more sonically interesting texture.

www.izotope.com

 

[rob aylestone]

What would be the advantage of converting LRstereo to MS and processing the two tracks separately. The result would be the loss of symetry which is what has happened here. There seems no logical reason to do this, because MS is never going to work this way. Processing that increases levels in the side will shift the image away from centre and processing levels in the mid channel create peaks or big holes, and that slight phasey feel as harmonics ‘shimmer’.

 

[JamEZmusic]

The image is already off center, I was suggesting to just wipe it out with a high pass filter to get that low end balanced again, and mono. If his bass was mono, there would be no (sides) anyway. It's literally no different to having a completely mono bass, but with a stereo chorus on an aux but just highpassing the stereo chorus on the aux track to keep the messy stereo image in the low end away from the pure mono bass. I know what you mean about the M/S technique, and encoding but that's different to what I was suggesting, And pointless to encode an M/S signal from a mono source anyway.

edit: I've heard of people recording M/S technique but without the M mic. Fine for sources that you don't mind losing in mono entirely but for ear candy stuff I know it's used. It just seems like a lot of work for something so trivial but music producers and engineers can be a funny breed I guess.

 

[Svemir]

The image is already off center, I was suggesting to just wipe it out with a high pass filter to get that low end balanced again, and mono. If his bass was mono, there would be no (sides) anyway. It's literally no different to having a completely mono bass, but with a stereo chorus on an aux but just highpassing the stereo chorus on the aux track to keep the messy stereo image in the low end away from the pure mono bass. I know what you mean about the M/S technique, and encoding but that's different to what I was suggesting, And pointless to encode an M/S signal from a mono source anyway.

edit: I've heard of people recording M/S technique but without the M mic. Fine for sources that you don't mind losing in mono entirely but for ear candy stuff I know it's used. It just seems like a lot of work for something so trivial but music producers and engineers can be a funny breed I guess.

My problem is that the bass is mono, but at the same time is too wide, speaking only about the bass track. I compared it with a Mogwai song and in my mix I can hear the low end too wide like on the back of my ears. It is balanced left and right but too wide. I need a plugin that is opposite of a widener, I need a tightner that would bring the bass closer to the center.

if I just cut the low frequencies it will cut them, but it will cut them on the sides and also in the mid.

 

[JamEZmusic]

If your bass is Mono and too wide I feel like you may be hearing too much of a frequency buildup, Mono and too wide does not make any sense to me.

I can't really tell you much more on how to sort your problem because I do not know anything about your DAW or even if you have a mid side EQ. But I would see if you can google how to EQ just the side channel and just High Pass the bass until the problem goes away. This is down to you to do a little digging because it is DAW specific, high passing the low end should not effect the mid. If you are losing your bass entirely when you try high passing the sides then this suggests to me that your bass is in stereo and there is no mid information. But impossible for me to speculate.

Some stereo widener plugins also narrow your stereo image, if your Stereo Widener plugin in your DAW allows you to pull the stereo information into a negative value (this basically just turns it into mono, hence what I said up above about the bass being mono but still sounding too wide just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me) then just do that, some wideners also allow you to pull down just the bottom end into mono (narrow). But I would still suggest to you to high pass the sides only once you figure it out for more control.

This is going to be my last post on here for a while, maybe for good. I kinda just feel like I'm pissing people off. Apart from that I just need to concentrate on my own mixes and dedicate as much of my available time as humanly possible to get through a few projects that are starting to overwhelm me because of the sheer bulk of them.

 

[rob aylestone]

That's sad - I actually find forums a very positive thing and they seem to make me more productive, not less. Seeing the mess some people get in, or the poor equipment they struggle with, or just their lack of basic knowledge makes me, I think, better able to sort my own problems out. You clearly know your stuff, I don't think you're pissing people off. If you want to leave, that's of course fine - but you make a positive contribution - just saying.

 

[JamEZmusic]

Cheers dude,

I'm sure I will be back in a couple of months, It's just a barrage of other responsibilites I have coming up that are making it difficult for me to chill here as often as I'd like to. currently working 3 jobs and have some legal stuff I'm going through. Luckily 2 of those jobs are Audio Engineer/Production related which is always the plan. But I'm all over the country for a few weeks anyway. (England)

I'll be checking in though.

Nice one

Unti next time