Preamp Questions for Harvey

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TexRoadkill

TexRoadkill

Audio Bum
Harvey, have you ever made a big Preamp Thread? My philosophy on recording is that getting a great signal to tape is 90% of the battle. The rest is just making sure you dont screw with the tracks too much in the rest of the process and suck the life out of them.

With that in mind the mic and preamp are the two most important elements after the source performance.

In your opinion, what level of preamps are required for a dynamic or low end condensor mic to be preamped with no added noise beyond the mic's self noise?

Can a DMP3, Mackie or Soundcraft amplify a SM57 on a soft source without adding additional noise or is that impossible to expect from any preamp let alone a cheap one?

If we take 'taste' and 'color' out of the equation what preamps are technically suitable for a superb preamplification of the mics that most of us are using?

Everyone is welcome to respond here but please keep it brief so we dont have to wade through a bunch of crap just to get to Harvey's responses if he decides to pontificate.
 
This is a thread best left for Dan Kennedy, but here are a few thoughts I have about preamps and equipment in general:

There are two extremes in basic schools of recording: accuracy vs. coloration.

Many people think that accuracy is most important for things like string quartets, symphonies, pipe organ and most classical music, while others argue that you can never duplicate the actual sound of live music when recording, so why even try? Go for the most pleasing illusion - even if that means altering the sound considerably.

Others (who work in electronic music) aren't even concerned about accuracy OR coloration - they're going for creating a particular mood. Any way they can get there is fair game. So is there a truth buried in all this somewhere? Yes, and no.

As recordists, our job is to capture the sound and try to create (or re-create) the excitement that the artist wants the listener to feel. We have a lot of tools at our disposal to do that task. We must decide whether accuracy, or something that compliments the sound, is the most desirable tool for a given project.

The medium determines the quality of the tools needed to do any job. If you record a metal group to a 4-track cassette recorder, you don't have to worry about the residual noise level as much as if you're recording a classical harp to a digital format. You also don't need a $5,000 mic to get a fair reproduction of a Strat plugged into a Marshall 1/2 stack.

To most people, the most important equipment specs seem to be a very low noise level, flatness of the frequency response, and low distortion, but in truth, most of those specs are meaningless during the actual recording process.

Why use a ruler flat mic to record something if you're going to add a ton of eq? Who cares about self noise, or the 1/2% distortion level if you're recording a Marshall stack that's putting out 10% distortion (and an amp noise level that can drive a gopher out of his hole at 40 feet)?

Yes, self noise, flatness, and low distortion may be important if you record quiet acoustic instruments, but how much noise, flatness, and distortion are tolerable is something only you can decide. If the particular sound is just a small part of a bigger picture, none of those criteria may even be important at all.

Try this: If you have one of the large diaphragm mics that are talked about on this forum, try putting on a pair of headphones, and getting right into the mic screen, say something like, "I am your father, Luke", or sing something softly, or just talk quietly.

Hear yourself? Well, surprise, that doesn't sound like you. Not at all. BUT, it's a great, complimentary sound. It might be really useful for something at some point.

OK, back to the original point of this thread.

You can't exclude coloration, or if something is complimentary, from any discussion of mics or preamps. In fact, at the lowest levels of making choices of mics and preamps, all you have to choose from is coloration, and complimentation. With just a few exceptions, low noise, flatness, and low distortion costs more money.

The preamps built into a Mackie are very good, low noise, flat, low distortion preamps, but their loading characteristics leave a lot to be desired. Some mics will sound totally different when plugged into a really high quality preamp. A Shure SM-57 plugged into a Great River MP2-NV is an entirely different animal than the same mic plugged into a Mackie.

Great preamps (like the API, Great River, Neve, Millina Media, etc.) can turn an ordinary mic into a thing of beauty, or make an extraordinary mic beautiful beyond belief, while putting them both into a run of the mill preamp can remove all semblences of the "magic" the mic may possess.

So how do you know what's the right choice for your needs? It's a good question - I only wish I had a good answer for you. I don't. I can only suggest that you try preamps, using your own microphones, till you find the right combination for your needs, or start with a few basic colors of preamp, and learn how to modify the signal to make it sound the way you want it to sound.

For some recordings I've done, during mixdown, I'll run the vocals thru a SansAmp stompbox to actually introduce some distortion into the track. Why'd I do it? Because the vocal sound din't fit the rest of the music - it was too clean. Making the vocal track a little more gritty was the right choice, in that particular instance.

The Audio Buddy seems to be a fairly nice clean preamp if you don't push it too hard. Preamps like the ART, Joe Meeks, and a few others have a definite coloration to them. If you have a preamp, learn the settings that sound the cleanest, and the settings that impart the maximum coloration, and then learn how to dial in those settings to control and get the sound you want.

In the end, it's all about control and learning how to use the equipment you already own. Most people have more equipment than they really need, and that includes me. Leaps and bounds in recording don't come with the addition of new equipment; they come with really understanding what you already have and how to use it to it's fullest potential.
 
I am considering upgrading my DAC chain but decided I was getting good enough quality for my overall system. I am interested in stepping up my preamps first and figured if I am going to make a considerable investment in my signal chain I would be better off making the first investment in preamps since the technology hasn't really changed considerably in a few decades.

I am mainly doing acoustic recordings so for me a good SNR is my main concern. I would like to be able to crank an ECM or a MXL V93 and be sure I am not adding any hiss from the preamps.

If somebody already has Mackie, DMP3, or SoundCraft M preamps is something like the Grace 101 going to give a noticeably cleaner preamplification with less noise? Or is the next step really an Avalon, API or GreatRiver?

Thanks for all your input.
 
The next step may very well be the RNMP from FMR Audio, which hopefully I'll see pretty soon now.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
This is a thread best left for Dan Kennedy. . .

Some very useful advice from some of his previous posts on the subject:

* "As someone who builds and sells and uses high buck preamps, let me tell you this, get a good mic.

It, the tune and production values, makes way more difference than any preamp will ever make to your recording.

Learn the tools you have and more importantly the techniques before you fall into the gear lust trap. If you are serious about this business you will realize that real tools cost a fair amount of money, but they will be with you forever. The cheap stuff you buy as you are learn this will be in your garage sale."

* "The importance of preamps is blown so far out of proprotion as to be somewhat embarrassing.

Microphones and placement and the impact of the room you are recording in make an order of magnitude difference in what you get to tape than the preamp does. Not to mention talent... "
 
the Grace 101 will get you there..I run a ribbon{ML19} thru one and I've got to jack it up pretty high to get a good level and its very quiet/clean/transparent..They make a "Ribbon"version also with 70db of gain were as I have the 60db version..I would think that you could do really nice work with the Grace that would "hang" with most of the other choices..I think that when you get up these and the Earthworks Lab you are at the start of some very nice pres where the differences become even smaller{for noise/clean/transparence}..I am going to get a second one soon..Wallet be dammed LOL..


Don
 
Harvey Gerst said:

The preamps built into a Mackie are very good, low noise, flat, low distortion preamps, but their loading characteristics leave a lot to be desired. Some mics will sound totally different when plugged into a really high quality preamp. A Shure SM-57 plugged into a Great River MP2-NV is an entirely different animal than the same mic plugged into a Mackie.

The following is from the Joemeek brochure touting the "current sensing" preamp inputs on their "cs" models. It would seem this would affect the loading of the mic in a favorable way. Is there any truth to this, or is it advertising hype?

We use a low impedance mic pre, to keep the voltage sensed low (because this is ignored by our pre amplifier). The current generated by the microphone will equal the current sensed at the mic pre. It does not matter what impedance mic you plug in, the frequency response is not affected, and the noise performance is just as good as any standard mic pre.

Advantages of CurrentSense over traditional mic pre

* Extended frequency response, higher and lower
* A more even frequency response can be expected from all microphone types
* Any microphone can be used without having to make impedance adjustments
* Any cabling can be used - the resistance/quality no longer matters!
 
Anyone have knowledge/opinion on the Joemeek "current sensing" inputs?
I've just bought a MQ3 and tried an SM58 thru it versus the Audio Buddy, with the compression and EQ off on the MQ3.
The MQ3 has a higher gain, but at a roughly equivalent gain (60dB) the SM58 sounds definitely brighter with more presence thru the MQ3 than thru the Audio Buddy, which could be attributed to the load factor.
Condenser mics don't seem to demonstrate such a difference.

Anybody?
 
chessrock said:

* "The importance of preamps is blown so far out of proprotion as to be somewhat embarrassing.

No one would argue with the value of having a great mic, great room acoustics, talented musicians, great songs, etc. (Well, maybe one would, but we won't mention any names!)

But with all due respect to Dan (and to be fair, I'd like to see the larger context of his remarks) I can also say that switching from one preamp to another amongst the various colors available, (even in my modest collection) can make a drastic difference in the recorded sound - often in the same order of magnitude as switching mics or mic positions. In many cases, the differences are not at all subtle.
 
Davisound?

Anyone actually tried that Davisound TB-6? How does it compare to the Avalons, Grace, Earthworks, etc?

-Sal
 
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