Powered setup impasse

P

Puny Earthling

New member
Hello,
My audio experience is basic. Have reached an impasse in my “Powered Setup” research of the below. My biggest frustration is not being able to tell if a mixer is powered or unpowered because it is not clearly stated in the product’s copy anywhere. Or is it simple: digital mixers are always powered, unless a hybrid?
  1. Looking for a mixer for in-home karaoke for under $600:
    unpowered/passive,
    digital (not hybrid - concerned about feedback and channel noise),
    with quality fx and at least 8 storable scenes,
    with at least 6 xlr mic inputs/channels/quality preamps (no instruments, just karaoke audio RCA i/o),
  1. Also looking for a powered/active Class D, bi-amped or tri-amped, ported, flat-response monitor (no sfx, EQ and mic inputs - mixer’s job) for under $600. (Does it matter if the monitor/s is/are plugged into the main outs or into the monitor outs in this setup?)
  2. The carpeted room is a horizontal 16’x13’x8’h with bare concrete walls, leather furniture and a raftered ceiling. What size monitor would i need? Am thinking one 8”. And how/where would you place it, or them if two, in the room? The 6 sitting/standing vocalists spread arced along the 16-foot wall are facing a tv screen centered 10’ away.
  3. May i have your short list of mixer/monitor choices, even if vastly different from what i perceive? If i have confused something, please enlighten me.
  4. I have a basic Acer Chromebook with USB3.0 and an SD/multicard reader; and also a Dell Vostro 7500 Win10Pro64 with USB-A, Thunderbolt3 USB-C, and miniSD. Can any of your choices record live to any of these two laptops, to be simple edited, then saved on a thumbdrive or SD card or delivered some other way in a quality format (not mp3), eg via the cloud, to the vocalists?
Thanks, Don
 
Try the Presonus StudioLive range of digital mixers, e.g.

www.storedj.com.au

PreSonus StudioLive 16.0.2 USB 16x2 Performance & Recording Digital Mixer

When you’re mixing a live event or have an artist in the studio, you need to be able to work quickly. The StudioLive® 16.0.2 USB’s familiar, easy-to-use interface keeps all critical controls visible and accessible —not buried in menus or layers. PreSonus' design philosophy is simple: One fader...
www.storedj.com.au www.storedj.com.au

And maybe the Presonus Air range of powered speakers:

www.storedj.com.au

PreSonus AIR12 12" 1200W 2-Way Active Sound Reinforcement Loudspeaker

Compact and lightweight, AIR12 active loudspeakers provide a rich, extended low-end and natural high-frequency extension in an enclosure that will easily fit in the backseat of a small car. Backed by 1,200W (dynamic) of Class D/Class AB power and enhanced with easy-to-use digital tuning...
www.storedj.com.au www.storedj.com.au

I expect it will be difficult to find speakers without mic inputs or EQ. Most contemporary speakers are designedn to be more flexible, rather than less.
 
I’ve never found any mixer where this was confusing. Powered mixers always have a few things in the spec, power output in Watts and speaker impedance in Ohms. Which ones do you fancy that don’t mention this. mixers with built in amps are always smaller and less well equipped. Once channel count goes over maybe 12, the rooms vary in size so much that the PAs are all so different. Digital mixers are rarely anything other than a mixer with digital and analogue outs. You’ve got your terms a bit mangled which is getting in the way. Speakers are passive or active, as in meaning an amp fitted inside, expecting a line level input. Mixers never get termed passive, as clearly to work they are active devices. Analogue and digital are just choices now. Digital can do more things and offer more flexibility, but before long, everything will be digital. If you want karaoke in your space, then a small PA mixer with the facilities you want is the key. Probably doesn’t matter if it’s analogue or digital. You then plug it into active (powered) speakers for simplicity. However, a power amp and passive speakers wouldn’t worry me, and is really just two extra cables.

regarding the monitors, the source of the monitor’s audio could be the main outs, but that restricts what you hear to just the same mix, so usually you would use a pre-fade send so the monitor mix can be different. If your typical karaoke session is one mic and the track, then your singer might want lots of the track but less of them, than you have in the main PA. the separate prefade mix let’s you do this, and even have different eq if you wish.

if you want to start recording then the entire things changes. If you buy a small digital mixer like a behringer X32 you can record every source going through the mixer separately to the computer with one usb cable, to free software like audacity. Fasting laptop with decent capacity drive and job is done. The snag will be you and the amount of learning you have to do. If you want good quality recording, you need proper monitors. Pa is rubbish for recording, even expensive pa. they are very different sounding products. 12 or 15” speakers on sticks even with subs are pretty poor audio quality compared to studio monitors. Studio monitors, of course, are also terrrible for PA.
 
Thanks Rob and Gecko for your response. Rob has unmangled my understanding of terms used in the marketing of mixers on the internet. Here is my takeaway, please tell me if i am still mangled:
When searching the web, remember that:
“Digital Mixers” = “Powered Digital Mixers” (digital mixers are always powered)
“Analog Mixers” = “Unpowered Analog Mixers” (analog mixers are always unpowered w/o an amp)
“Powered Mixers” = “Powered Analog Mixers” (powered mixers are always analog in marketing lingo)
“Hybrid Mixers” = “Powered Analog+Digital Mixers” (a hybrid mixer’s analog is always powered)
Mixers can be unpowered but not passive; speakers can be passive, but not unpowered in marketing jargon.
Only powered mixers contain power output (in watts) and impedance (in ohms) specs.
Additionally i have just learned:
Only digital mixers have a SELECT button on each channel (hybrid’s channels too?).
Only analog mixers have EQ knobs and aux sends on each channel.
Gecko proffered a hybrid mixer. My concern regards feedback and channel noise. Can hybrid mixers prevent these and offer fx and scenes too? if so, how can it be a hybrid mixer? Wouldn't it be a digital mixer? Thanks a whole bunch, Don
 
All mixers need power, but when you read that a mixer is a 'powered mixer' it means that it has inbuilt power amps. That means you can connect passive speakers to it, without needing a separate power amp.

All mixers can be subject to feedback and channel noise.

Channel noise is a function of circuit design, construction, and maintenance. Most contemporary mixers are generally noise-free, but dust, dirt and fluids are not friends,

Feedback is a function of speaker placement, room charactersitics, signal volume and engineer skill. Digital mixers often come with inbuilt feedback management software. Alll mixers come with EQ management of various forms, a useful tool in ctrolling feedback.
 
For a while I was hunting for a good used Yamaha O1V mixer. It ticks a lot of the boxes, with scenes, motorized faders, digital effects. I figured it would be a nice upgrade from my very ancient MX12/4 mixer. You can find them on the used market from $250=500. Alas, I never found the right deal before the band fell apart.

You could easily get by with a 10 or 12" powered monitor. Maybe a JBL EON or EV ZLX monitor. For a room that size, you really don't need multiple speakers, but you could probably find a pair for around $600 which would let you go outside. I've heard the EONs used as PA speakers in a moderate sized room and they did fine.
 
Puny Earthling said:
Thanks Rob and Gecko for your response. Rob has unmangled my understanding of terms used in the marketing of mixers on the internet. Here is my takeaway, please tell me if i am still mangled:
When searching the web, remember that:
“Digital Mixers” = “Powered Digital Mixers” (digital mixers are always powered)
“Analog Mixers” = “Unpowered Analog Mixers” (analog mixers are always unpowered w/o an amp)
“Powered Mixers” = “Powered Analog Mixers” (powered mixers are always analog in marketing lingo)
“Hybrid Mixers” = “Powered Analog+Digital Mixers” (a hybrid mixer’s analog is always powered)
Mixers can be unpowered but not passive; speakers can be passive, but not unpowered in marketing jargon.
Only powered mixers contain power output (in watts) and impedance (in ohms) specs.
Additionally i have just learned:
Only digital mixers have a SELECT button on each channel (hybrid’s channels too?).
Only analog mixers have EQ knobs and aux sends on each channel.
Gecko proffered a hybrid mixer. My concern regards feedback and channel noise. Can hybrid mixers prevent these and offer fx and scenes too? if so, how can it be a hybrid mixer? Wouldn't it be a digital mixer? Thanks a whole bunch, Don
Click to expand...
No, some of your assumptions are way off.

Digital mixer = means that the analog signals are converted (A>D) inside the mixer, processed in digital, than converted (D>A) to analog for output to speakers. Some digital mixers DO have knobs or sliders to use (and they me assignable to different functions).
Analog mixer = no A>D D>A conversion, all signal processing is done in analog, but the mixer MAY have a A.D converter for USB output.

Powered mixer = has amplifier built-in to power speakers.
Unpowered mixer = no amplifier, must use external amp or powered speakers.

Passive speakers = need amplified signal
Powered speakers = built-in amp

Features such as reverb, aux sends can be on any type of mixer - the more costly the mixer, the more features it has (generally).
 
You're trying to learn quite a bit rather quickly. Remember that it's never cut and dried. We've had the hybrid types too for quite a while - analogue mixers with digital control of the faders and routing, but not digital audio - that's a big difference. Also - some ways of working change. As desks got more and more channels, more and a more groups and auxiliaries, the knob count got higher and higher. I remember a mixer that had a huge wipe clean board that had hundreds of holes punched in it - you laid it over the knobs and marked it with a white board marker - it let you 'record' the position of ever knob and fader at the end of the session, but be able to restore it in a day/week when the band came back in. two or three hundred knobs started making the big desks impossible to manage. 56 inputs and ten EQ knobs on each channel - over 500 knobs just for EQ. Even ignoring the audio side, a digital desk with that select button you spotted means one set of knobs for as many channels as you have. You can make it smaller with say just 24 fader, or even 16 - you didn't spot layers. So if you've gone a bit mad on the drum channels - and you have 12 channels just for the drums, you can put those 12 channels on layer 2, and do your drum mix there. Often it doesn't change much, so your stereo drum mix on layer 2 can pop up on just two faders on layer 1, or even as a stereo source on just one fader - so your entire huge stage setup might be on the top layer as Vox 1 Vox 2 Vox BVs drums guitar bass keys - just 8 faders. Maybe it would be nice to have a couple of the reverbs to pop up there too. Digital mixers can do so much apart from just the sound side. If you do theatre work, as I do, you also might have loads of channels, but each scene on stage is very different, so for the first scene, with just one person singing, you get their voice, maybe a second back up channel, in case the first battery dies, plus a fader for the band. Just two faders - and they pop up right in the centre of the desk. Then scene two starts and 4 people appear on stage, their 4 mics replace the singer who has cleared off. Maybe in the scene there are sound effects - these pop up on faders, but only for this scene - probably played in from Q-lab. In theatre the op has a script and works every second of the show - with fingers playing the faders. With 24 active faders, it's too hard, so bringing only active ones up to the top layer, and then stepping through the cues marked in the script with a go button is how it's done now on the Yamahas and Digico desks that are flavour of the month. but even people with the popular X32s can do all this - a little clunkier maybe, but as your effects and eq can be changed too - no wonder why a non-digital desk really has no place in live music anymore, and why studios really can't work analogue any longer from the operating perspective. Digital control of an analogue desk is still possible, but it's practically gone.
 
Based on the invaluable input you all have generously provided, envision this:
Mixer INs: 5 handheld dynamic mics and 1 condenser mic on a stand xlr/1/4” wired to a fully digital mixer, and a karaoke machine rca wired. Mixer OUTs: 1 xlr/1/4” wired to a single active 10” or 12” flat-response monitor (no loudspeakers. I want to do all the “colorizing/enhancing.”) (Aside: The karaoke machine is video wired to a 43” Sony tv.)
So, what is the responsibility of the soundman, you ask? First session: to set up a scene for each vocalist on her mic during her solo warm up. Then open all channels. Then, set up recording and initially ensure the session is recording properly. Then, walk away, or join in! Return hours later, whenever the session ends, and wrap up. Edit the session on the Dell laptop and deliver the results to the vocalists (Yet to figure out the best delivery method).
Second and later sessions for these same vocalists, open possibly a layer with all 6 scenes on it?
Please note that i already have the mics, maybe all cables, karaoke machine and laptop. Just need your choices for the mixer and the monitor (for under $1,200 total, new). The recording/editing software may be the free Audacity (altho i have Steinberg’s basic Cubase/Wavelab, yet to be explored, on an HP desktop).
If you think my setup is crazy, please feel free to say so with your reasons, and to offer a better alternative. If you think it is a great setup that cannot be improved upon for the price, please feel free to validate that for me. Cheers! Don.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top