Poor Man's Drum Recording

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mattkw80

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Hey Everybody, quick questions for you :

I have these mics :

x2 Shure Sm57's
x1 Shure Sm58
x1 Behringer B-1 Condensor
x1 Roland Dr-20
x1 Radio Shack Omni-Directional Shure
x1 Peavy $40 Cheap Mic that came with a PA System

I usually put my B-1 overhead, and a Sm57 on the snare. I don't know why but then I usually put the SM58 on the kick drum. This has become habit to me, and now I setup this way automatically.

The b-1 does okay as an overhead mic I think, but the sm57 on the snare always comes through muddy.

I have never got a very inspiring drum sound this way. My Kick drum sound is awful, but I always lie to myself and pretend I might be able to fix that with some clever mixing. (Reverb, compression, etc).

Anybody know how I could fix this situation up by moving some mics around or trying something else ?

Is it possible to mix this recorded setup into something that sounds good ?
 
What are you recording into?

The setup you're using is probably the best you're going to get with the tools you have. The kick and snare problems you are experiencing are most likely due to placement --- the sm57 is decent mic on the snare and shouldn't be coming out muddy. If you have the 57 over the snare and pointed squarely at the centre, it should help eliminate bleed from the rest of the kit (although there will always be some). You can gate the snare and kick to isolate the sounds better.

While reverb may work on snare depending on the song, I've never reverbed a kick track just because it loses the punchyness which is what the kick is used for to begin with.

Essentially what I'm trying to say is that you should be able to get a 'decent' recording with what you have, just fool around with placements and experiment.
 
I am recording into my Roland VS2000 DAW.

Maybe I need to do some more reading specifically about
mic placement and drums, and mixing drums.

So I should leave the kick dry ? (No reverb) ?
 
There are a few things you can do, all of which are corrective but until you get more equipment this wil have to work. With the snare you should be able to get a decent sound to start, check the tuning of your snare. Also get some corrective eqing goin on, this will help. You may need to boost everything from 1khz up and possible cut the lows at like 250hz maybe even up to 500hz if it seems to make it sound better. With the kick drum it kind of depends on the sound you're going for. Back when I first started recording I used an Audix f12 which is not that great at all. I record mostly metal bands and they all want that thumpy yet clicky sound. So I usually double or triple the kick track and give them all their own character. Usually on one I'll boost the highs as much as possible and on the second I'll crank up the lows, if i do a third I usually try to blend the two other sounds. This has given me great kick sounds, every band that comes in loves the sound I give their kick. No this may not work well for you but I just though giving you some ideas may get the creative juices flowing enough to figure it out. The kick shouldn't be super hard to master but the snare is probably going to always give you problems unless you find that right combo of eq and limiting. Anyway good luck with your recording and if all else fails, triggered drums should work.
 
jonnyc said:
So I usually double or triple the kick track and give them all their own character. Usually on one I'll boost the highs as much as possible and on the second I'll crank up the lows,
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So what is it that you think this is doing? You could accomplish the same thing with 1 track and cutting the mids. The only way this would do anything is if there was panning, compression or some kind of time bassed effect involved.
 
What are triggered drums ?


Should I be EQ'ing and Limiting upon recording, or can I do it after in the mix ?


And thanks for the detailed help by the way.
 
HangDawg said:
So what is it that you think this is doing? You could accomplish the same thing with 1 track and cutting the mids. The only way this would do anything is if there was panning, compression or some kind of time bassed effect involved.
Click to expand...

I mostly do it this way because its easier for me, I've often tried to get the exact sound I like using one track but I just can't quite get it there, so I figured it would be an easy suggestion for the person asking the question. Why do you care? Try helping instead of looking for people to call out, besides who cares how it gets done as long as it does.
 
mattkw80 said:
What are triggered drums ?


Should I be EQ'ing and Limiting upon recording, or can I do it after in the mix ?


And thanks for the detailed help by the way.
Click to expand...

1. Triggered drums --- either midi, electronic kits, or triggers on your acoustics --- essentially a way of digitally creating a drum kit, no mics. So when you hit the snare, you're not capturing the actual sound of your snare, but the force with which you hit it, this is then used to 'trigger' a source of some kind which will have sampled drum sounds.

i.e. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RTKit1/

2. I wouldn't EQ while recording but during the mixdown.

3. Limiting can be useful during the recording process if the drummer hits inconsistently and some of his hits are clipping. Then use the limiter to ensure that none of those outlying peaks clip on the recording. Otherwise there's not much of a need to limit during the recording stage.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Wow... all good info so far.

I know this is off topic, but since you are good at explaining this stuff.... what is gating ?

What is a gate?

What is gated reverb ?
 
jonnyc said:
I mostly do it this way because its easier for me, I've often tried to get the exact sound I like using one track but I just can't quite get it there, so I figured it would be an easy suggestion for the person asking the question. Why do you care? Try helping instead of looking for people to call out, besides who cares how it gets done as long as it does.
Click to expand...


Why do you want to give people stupid suggestions like that. Making 3 copies of a kick drum track and applying 3 different eq's is retarded. It uses extra resources and if its software eq, you are just piling up all that nasty shit that software eqs tend to do to a track. If you can't get it right with 1, re-track it because you're doing something wrong.

So there, I helped by telling him what NOT to do.
 
mattkw80 said:
Wow... all good info so far.

I know this is off topic, but since you are good at explaining this stuff.... what is gating ?

What is a gate?

What is gated reverb ?
Click to expand...

1. Gating ---- some compressors/limiters come with Gates built in. Essentially, it's a way of isolating a sound. So the sound travels from the mic to the gate, and then you (through the gate) decide at what Db you want the gate to open and allow the signal to travel to the mixer/recording device/what have you.

It's particularly good for drums because if you miked stuff up properly, you should be able to isolate the snare and kick, so that the gate only opens on the snare or kick strikes, and closed on the rest, so that you don't get a whole lot of bleed from the rest of the kit on the snare and kick.

I usually gate during mixdown, because sometimes the bleed from the rest of the kit can actually enhance the drum tracks.

2. Gated Reverb

Easier just to direct you here.

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=91318&highlight=gate+reverb

You'll find that a lot of questions can be answered with the 'search' button. :)
 
HangDawg said:
Why do you want to give people stupid suggestions like that. Making 3 copies of a kick drum track and applying 3 different eq's is retarded. It uses extra resources and if its software eq, you are just piling up all that nasty shit that software eqs tend to do to a track. If you can't get it right with 1, re-track it because you're doing something wrong.

So there, I helped by telling him what NOT to do.
Click to expand...


You know I had a long response typed up to that but its not fair to the original poster to do that so I've deleted it. Are you usually this cruel to people? Thanks for making people here feel welcomed. And from now on I'll follow the "HangDawg Rules for Recording" book.
 
jonnyc said:
You know I had a long response typed up to that but its not fair to the original poster to do that so I've deleted it. Are you usually this cruel to people? Thanks for making people here feel welcomed. And from now on I'll follow the "HangDawg Rules for Recording" book.
Click to expand...


I already read your first response. You still didn't answer my initial question that I asked fairly nicely.
 
Yes I did answer it, you asked what this was doing, or something like that. And I stated that its just easier for me, you asked about possibly different compressions and yeah I do tend to compress the two or three tracks differently, and as I said I just couldn't get the click/boom sound of a metal kick that the artist wanted without doing it the way I did. It may have been wrong but it worked, and pretty well actually. I hate coming off as overly defensive but I just didn't get what was so wrong if it worked. And I apologize if I was ruining someones engineering career by giving incorrect information but I just wanted to help the guy out. I've read many of your post in the past and you seem extremely knowledgeable but I really felt more like I was being attacked instead of corrected.
 
jonnyc said:
Yes I did answer it, you asked what this was doing, or something like that. And I stated that its just easier for me, you asked about possibly different compressions and yeah I do tend to compress the two or three tracks differently, and as I said I just couldn't get the click/boom sound of a metal kick that the artist wanted without doing it the way I did. It may have been wrong but it worked, and pretty well actually. I hate coming off as overly defensive but I just didn't get what was so wrong if it worked. And I apologize if I was ruining someones engineering career by giving incorrect information but I just wanted to help the guy out. I've read many of your post in the past and you seem extremely knowledgeable but I really felt more like I was being attacked instead of corrected.
Click to expand...


I'm certainly no world class engineer myself. It's just when I hear something odd like that, I have to wonder what the reasoning is behind it. I've never heard any of the more knowledable folks around here suggest doubling a track just to apply highs to 1 and lows to the other. It strikes me as pointless and a bad suggestion to be giving people.

Now, maybe this guy should first tell us where he is recording these drums. Room size, is there bass trapping and other wall treatments for standing waves and flutter echo. Realistically, he should be able to get a balanced half decent sound with just the overhead if the kit sounds good in the room. I'd start there first. Adding more mics and more tracks right off the bat will get you into more trouble.
 
HangDawg said:
I'm certainly no world class engineer myself. It's just when I hear something odd like that, I have to wonder what the reasoning is behind it. I've never heard any of the more knowledable folks around here suggest doubling a track just to apply highs to 1 and lows to the other. It strikes me as pointless and a bad suggestion to be giving people.

Now, maybe this guy should first tell us where he is recording these drums. Room size, is there bass trapping and other wall treatments for standing waves and flutter echo. Realistically, he should be able to get a balanced half decent sound with just the overhead if the kit sounds good in the room. I'd start there first. Adding more mics and more tracks right off the bat will get you into more trouble.
Click to expand...

Well, I thank both of you guys for all the info you gave me.

I thought the idea of mixing 3 different tracks with 3 different EQ settings was kind of cool. I am thinking about trying it with vocals, so I appreciate the idea.

As well, thanks for the info about gating.

To answer you other questions HangDawg, my "studio" is a small room in my basement, that is maybe 12x12. I have put some thinish sort of foam on some of the walls, and some egg carton type material here and there as well. I did have a guy who owns a studio come by once, and he said the room didn't sound horrible.

I like your suggestion about getting the best sound with an overhead mic, and then trying to add other mics.

Out of all the mics I own, what should I have on the Kick drum ?
 
Yeah I can see how my thinking would be odd, and I am pretty much self taught in the studio world. I had a guy teach me a few of the ins and outs of ptle but most of his "theories" were all messed up. He used to tell me the phase reverse switch was the button to turn on the plug in. Took me about two days to realize that wasn't the case, and after that I figured places like this would yield far more accurate info then some guy that really doesn't know what he's doing. So I do apologize for giving out information that could be considered incorrect. However its odd that being incorrect it works so well. Rereading my original post what I said does look a bit dumb but like i said I couldn't get that sound without doing it. Or at least don't know how to get that sound without doing it.

And Matt the best way IMO to pick a mic for an instrument is just try it out. Take a day or so and mic your kick with each different mic and test, whichever one you like the best use it.
 
mattkw80 said:
Out of all the mics I own, what should I have on the Kick drum ?
Click to expand...


A 57 can work ok for kick. You should start with the overhead and get the best possible sound with it. Then add the kick mic. Snare mic can be last because the overhead will have lots of snare in it. Try putting a 57 on the bottom of the snare. Must reverse the phase if you do that though.
 
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