Phase-checking methods

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philbagg

philbagg

Just Killing Time
A question to those who mic live drums using multiple mics.

For example:
Kick
Snare Top
Snare Bottom
Hats
Toms
OH L+R
Room (mono or stereo)

What are your processes for checking phase before recording? Kick and snare against the overheads? What? :confused:

And, if you've messed up on the way in, have you ever nudged by samples to get them phase-coherent? If so, how well did that work out?
 
I'll simply do some scratch tracks and play with the channel phasing to hear
whether the mics are cancelling.

You can minimize the interference by using the proper polar patterns, aiming
the mics accordingly, and selecting frequency response and mic type for
respective parts of the drum kit.

Use filters on mics that are not recording low frequencies like the cymbals,
and then play with EQ if needed to dial in each drum mic.

This question is huge, and will take the discussion in several directions.
The room and sound treatment will also effect the phasing as the reflected
sound will be altered.
 
Use your ears .... that's what I do.
I don't know about the distances, polar patterns and all that crap.
Mic up the kit like you've seen and read others doing.
Do a scratch recording and listen.
Flip the phase (if possible ... easy in a DAW) on some suspect mics and see if the sound livens up or thins out.

Meters and tape measures sure in the fukk ain't gonna tell you what your ears hear.
 
Greg_L said:
Both.......
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Well, yeah... I know that much. But, what do you check against each other? Kick against overheads, snare against overheads, snare top and snare bottom? Bother with the toms?

I've done some really good drum recordings, so I know how to do it. I was just curious to see what techniques people had for phase checking.
 
philbagg said:
Well, yeah... I know that much. But, what do you check against each other? Kick against overheads, snare against overheads, snare top and snare bottom? Bother with the toms?

I've done some really good drum recordings, so I know how to do it. I was just curious to see what techniques people had for phase checking.
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I don't mic the bottom of my snare. Totally pointless.

I only check for L/R balance in the overhead tracks. I make sure the kick and snare are centered. Mostly the snare. I switch from mono to stereo as it's playing. If the snare stays in the same space of the stereo field, it's good.

The kick and snare are never gonna line up exactly with the overheads because that wouldn't be natural. Your snare mic is inches away from the snare while the overheads are feet away. You can nudge the overheads to line up with the snare track. This will usually lock em in with the toms too. If you zoom waaaaaay in and be really careful, this can really tighten up the snare sound. We're talking a few milliseconds, so the overall timing won't be noticeably affected. If everything else is as good as you can get it, this usually isn't necessary or even worthwhile. But it's cool to try sometimes.
 
Greg_L said:
I only check for L/R balance in the overhead tracks. I make sure the kick and snare are centered. Mostly the snare. I switch from mono to stereo as it's playing. If the snare stays in the same space of the stereo field, it's good.

The kick and snare are never gonna line up exactly with the overheads because that wouldn't be natural. Your snare mic is inches away from the snare while the overheads are feet away. You can nudge the overheads to line up with the snare track. This will usually lock em in with the toms too. If you zoom waaaaaay in and be really careful, this can really tighten up the snare sound. We're talking a few milliseconds, so the overall timing won't be noticeably affected. If everything else is as good as you can get it, this usually isn't necessary or even worthwhile. But it's cool to try sometimes.
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Cheers Gerg, some good info here. Gotta spread :rolleyes: Might I suggest you add something about phase to your "Recording Rock Drums" thread?

I've done recordings of drums with multiple mics (running about 7 or 8 mics), without checking phase only to realise later that they were out. The sound was crappy.

Then, same kit, same room, similar mics, recorded another time. This time I checked for phase and had to make some mic placement adjustments till it was ok. The difference was huge. It sounded fantastic. So I really think that phase can have a huge impact on a drum sound.

I don't mic the bottom of my snare. Totally pointless.
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This, I have to disagree with. Most of the time I find the snare top to be a little too...bouncy? It was missing snap, and it wasn't something you could try to EQ in. Blending in a little snare bottom sometimes does wonders.

Then again, other times I just mute it and it sounds better.

Although, it probably is pointless on your snare. I've heard your stuff and the snare always sounds really good. Nothing else needed. Other snares may need it though.
 
philbagg said:
Cheers Gerg, some good info here. Gotta spread :rolleyes: Might I suggest you add something about phase to your "Recording Rock Drums" thread?

I've done recordings of drums with multiple mics (running about 7 or 8 mics), without checking phase only to realise later that they were out. The sound was crappy.

Then, same kit, same room, similar mics, recorded another time. This time I checked for phase and had to make some mic placement adjustments till it was ok. The difference was huge. It sounded fantastic. So I really think that phase can have a huge impact on a drum sound.



This, I have to disagree with. Most of the time I find the snare top to be a little too...bouncy? It was missing snap, and it wasn't something you could try to EQ in. Blending in a little snare bottom sometimes does wonders.

Then again, other times I just mute it and it sounds better.

Although, it probably is pointless on your snare. I've heard your stuff and the snare always sounds really good. Nothing else needed. Other snares may need it though.
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Phase plays a huge role whenever you're using multiple mics on anything. For me, in addition to the overheads, I close mic the drums and only use one mic each, so phase isn't an issue there. The overheads are the only mics that are phase sensitive in my setup. I take great care in setting them up properly and checking things before I record. I've never really had any serious phase problems. If you just throw up some overheads with no consideration of phase and let er rip, chances are it will sound like ass.

I know a lot of pro engineers mic the bottom of the snare, and who am I to argue with them? I just believe that if your snare is tuned well to sound good, and your overheads and close mic are in good spots, it's not necessary to mic the bottom. And it's especially not necessary if you're low on inputs. I'd personally never trade a tom mic for a bottom snare mic. Like the overheads, I take care when setting up the close snare mic. I don't just stick it next to the snare somewhere and call it good. No indeed. I position it to get a blend of crack, shell resonance, and snare buzz. It takes some trial and error, but it's very doable. If the snare is tuned well and sounds how you want it to sound, you can easily fine tune it in the mix with EQ and compression. I think a common problem with people close miking the snare with one mic is that they get too much top head. The snare batter does very little towards your overall snare sound. It's just a batter. You get attack, and that's about it. Too much top head in the snare mic will sound like a tightly tuned dead tom. Back the mic up and away and you'll pick up the rest of the snare beautifully in addition to to what the overheads get. No input eating bottom mic necessary.
 
Greg_L said:
I think a common problem with people close miking the snare with one mic is that they get too much top head. The snare batter does very little towards your overall snare sound. It's just a batter. You get attack, and that's about it. Too much top head in the snare mic will sound like a tightly tuned dead tom. Back the mic up and away and you'll pick up the rest of the snare beautifully in addition to to what the overheads get. No input eating bottom mic necessary.
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This is great advice. Good stuff.

Oh, and if I was stuck for inputs I wouldn't bother with the bottom mic either. The only drum recordings I've done have been in a studio with a Pro Tools HD rig. 24 inputs. And if you have the equipment and the inputs, I don't see why not. Safe than sorry etc.
 
Greg_L said:
The overheads are the only mics that are phase sensitive in my setup. I take great care in setting them up properly and checking things before I record.
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Just getting back to the OP though. You're talking about setting up your overheads "properly". How do you ensure phase-coherency? Measuring equal-distance from the snare? Flipping phase on the channels and having a listen?

WHAT DO YOU DO?!?!?!?!? :mad: :mad: :mad:







....sorry :o
 
philbagg said:
Just getting back to the OP though. You're talking about setting up your overheads "properly". How do you ensure phase-coherency? Measuring equal-distance from the snare? Flipping phase on the channels and having a listen?

WHAT DO YOU DO?!?!?!?!? :mad: :mad: :mad:







....sorry :o
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I already told you. I listen in mono and stereo. If the snare moves around, it's wrong.

The recorderman setup is really easy to get right. The 2 drumstick rule works pretty well. Make sure the capsules are pointed at the center of the snare, 2 drumstick lengths away. One straight overhead pointed down at the snare, one near your inside shoulder. And yeah, if I want more distance, I'll break out a tape measure. It takes all of 5 minutes to set up properly. Spaced pair, X-Y, etc takes considerably longer to get right and is way easier to fuck up.
 
Out of phase overheads are something that takes a little time to notice. Generally, you'll hear the snare and/or kick leaning to one side or the other. It will sound flabby and/or faint in stereo, and then when you listen to one overhead track by itself, it cleans up. Back to stereo, and it sounds like shit. You want your overheads to "hear" the snare at the same time.
 
Coolio. Thanks Greg, much appreciated.

If anybody else has some interesting tips on phase-checking, I'd love to hear em too :D

I heard one a while ago of putting the inputs out of phase first, and then moving the mic until it sounds REALLY badly out of phase. Then, unflip the phase and you know you're doing right.

Although, I've used slightly out of phase micing on purpose in the past, because it sounded better. Mic phase can be a great recording EQ ;)
 
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