Patch change setups for live?

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fraserhutch

fraserhutch

Flypaper for freaks
Hi all,

Pardon me if this has been asked before, but I did a search and came up empty-handed.

I also realize this is a recording forum and I am asking a performing question, but I hope it's not too OT.

What do you guys do for handling patch setups and changes on stage? If you use more than a single sound source on stage, what do you use to store and coordinate your patch change setups?

Thanks in advance.
 
Program changes should be included in any midi patcher worth it's salt. Digital Music, JL Cooper, MAudio, Edirol, 360 Systems all made good ones at one time or another, but a quick googling brought up not much. They worked like this --- you could designate a channel to receive a PC on, then assign which PC it transmitted on to the rest of your rig. I successfully used one of these with 10 synth modules back in the day without a glitch.

Maybe you should consider my solution --- I use a Peavey PC1600X for all program change duties on stage and the 16 fully assignable faders and 16 fully assignable buttons come in mighty handy around sequencing time. See it here.

As an alternative, I did find this on the JL Cooper web site, and it says it has 50 memories so it should be able to memorize 50 combinations of program changes. But then so does the Peavey and if I remember right I paid about $300 for it at a local store.

Oh yeah --- the Peavey is built like a tank. It's been the most reliable tool in the shed and I've had it at least a dozen years now. And I owned a PC1600 before it too.
 
Another possibility

If you don't mind a foot controller, the Behringer FCB1010, has a bunch of switches and two continuous controllers. It has bank switching so you can program a huge number of combinations. I believe that each switch can be programmed to issue a sequence of midi program changes and note info. I'm pretty sure the midi channel is programmable for each patch (double check this if you are interested). The learning curve on this one is steep but there is a yahoo message board available for support. Make sure you get one with the latest firmware. Street price runs about $130-150

peace
 
There are several ways to switch patches in multiple keyboards/modules in a live setup. I do this for a living, so let me try and lay out a couple of ways I make this work for me.

I use a controller keyboard to send patches changes to multiple modules or other keyboards. I often use a Roland A-70, which is a 76 note controller keyboard that has four independent midi outputs. It has 8 independent midi processors onboard, which can be assigned to those four midi outs. So all 8 processors could be sent to midi out 1, for example. Each processor can be programmed to send it's own patch change, preset volume, pan, and lots of other data.

So with a controller like the A-70 you could connect up to four modules to the midi outputs and then program the patch changes into the patches in the A-70. You would change the one patch in the A-70 and it would in turn send all the relevant patch changes to the connected keyboards and modules.

I also have a couple very useful boxes made by Yamaha called the MEP4. This box is a midi processor that has one midi input and four midi outputs. It has four midi processors inside, which can again be assigned to any of the midi outputs. The nice thing about this box is that it turns *any* keyboard into a controller keyboard.

There are other boxes made by 360 Systems (Midi Patcher), Digital Music Corp. (MX-8), JL Cooper, and others. The JL Cooper box to consider is not one of the units that has faders, but the MSB+ Version 2. However, don't get any version of that box other than version 2 because the earlier versions are buggy. I've owned many midi patchbay/processors and prefer the 360 Systems for relatively simple things like assigning patch changes to multiple modules. However, overall the Yamaha MEP4 is my favorite and I've used it a lot. They go cheap on eBay, but just make sure you get one that has a manual if you go for an MEP4. Very tough to program without that, but easy with the manual for the most part.

Also, some keyboards have good master controller functions built in. The Korg Wavestation makes an excellent controller, for example. You can send multiple patch changes on different channels, set zones, volumes, and a few other features.

The big features you need in any controller keyboard or processor box are the ability to set patch changes, volume, and keyboard zones. Any box without all three of those features is not going to be of terribly much use.

I prefer to call up patches from the keyboard. Punching buttons on a rack box does not cut it for live work if you have a lot of fast changes, which I often do. So reaching for a rack box or a control surface like a Peavey or whatever is not practical in many situations. There are several differnet ways to change patches:

From the keyboard front panel. Ideally, the keyboard will have banks of buttons that you can use to quickly call up patch changes in one or two presses. Many keyboards have keypads where you have to type in a number, like "24" for example, and then press enter. This gets old quickly, and is not useful if there are fast changes.

A way around this is to program patches into the keyboard in the order they will appear in the show. This is done quite commonly. All that is required in this case is to simply press the increment up button. Then you are at the next patch in one button press.

If I have a busy show what I like to do is program "chains". What you need for chains is a controller that allows you to create chains of patches in the order you wish to use them. The Roland A-70 does this. It has the capability of holding ten 64 step chains. I've never used all ten on one show but I have used up three chains on a single show.

The advantage to chains is that you can put the patches into the controller's patch memory in any order you want, and then just put them in the show order later. If the show changes it becomes easy to re-order the patches. If for example you have put all the patches into your synth in the order, and then have to change that, it gets to be really hairy sometimes because you have to move a lot of patches around. Chains eliminate the need for that. You are changing the order of the pointers to the patches, not the order of the patches themselves.

What you do with chains is put the programs in order in the chain, then call up the programs by a simple increment up button press. Or, what I prefer, is to step through the show using a foot pedal to increment through the patches. So every time I want the next patch on the controller I tap the pedal switch and the keyboard pops to the next program in the chain. This is great because you can keep your hands on the keyboard.

But again, you need a controller that has chain capabilities, and not all do. The unfortunate thing is that most of the best keyboard controllers for live shows have already been made and are no longer in production. Pretty much with the exception of Kurzweil, the great controllers are a dead breed. The controllers you see now, the ones with USB, few front panel controls, few or no patch memories, are a *total* joke if you are serious about playing live. These USB controllers are strictly for use at home with a computer in my opinion. Many of them don't even really have a way to call up patches from their front panel, making them useless even with an outboard midi processor like the Yamaha MEP4.

There's more, but to sum up:

You need a midi processor capable of handling multiple patches/zones/volumes per midi channel per patch, and ideally going to multiple assignable midi outputs.

The ideal way to switch patches onstage is from the front panel of whatever you are playing, or stepping through the patch changes with a foot pedal. Reaching for any kind of outboard box adds a potential element of time and distance that is best avoided in my opinion. It also can be impractical if the show is demanding enough in terms of fast patch changes.

A controller or midi processor box that supports chaining of its patches is to be preferred. Chaining patches makes performing a show a lot smoother in my opinion.

This turned out to be a long post, hope some of this helps.
 
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I use a Behringer FCB1010 to send Program Change messages to my PC which in turn routes them to the soft-synths I use live, and to any external hardware synths/FX devices. I generally have all the patches I will need for a particular song set to 1 Program Change. And then I basically step through the programs between songs (i.e. Program 1 on the FCB=Song1, Prog2=Song2, etc.). The only exception is my N364 which is my primary solo synth, which is independant of control change, but can still cumminicate with the PC as a controller in certain patches, for heavy layered sounds. And obviously my Pre-MIDI gear is seperate too. I use MIDI-OX and EnergyXT for patching, and hosting duties respectively.
 
SonicAlbert said:
There are other boxes made by 360 Systems (Midi Patcher), Digital Music Corp. (MX-8), JL Cooper, and others. like the Yamaha MEP4.
Hmmmm.

Now where have I seen a very similar list just recently?

Oh yeah! It was in my reply which Sonic Albert pretended not to read.

We all 'do this for a living', my friend.

Just because I am in the creative songwriting and performing end of the industry and you are in the dinner theater end of the industry desperate for someone to take you more seriously doesn't mean you will help your cause by ignoring my answers.

The JL Cooper box to consider is not one of the units that has faders, but the MSB+ Version 2.
And there's no reason to be so snide. If the MSB+ Version 2 was still in production I would have linked my post to that.
 
I am hoping I can get a simple answer to this question. I want to use a live setup that includes a Korg PA80 and a Roland rack unit.
I would like to use the right side of the Korg for one side and the left side of the Korg for the Roland.
How do I control that and what sounds I use on each side as I switch from one song to the next in the gig?
 
Does the Korg have splittable zones? Is it even splittable?

If your controller keyboard is splittable AND the module is capable of producting multible timbers on different MIDI channels, you should be able to do this.

Can you gear comply?

Carl
 
ssscientist said:
Now where have I seen a very similar list just recently?

Oh yeah! It was in my reply which Sonic Albert pretended not to read.

We all 'do this for a living', my friend.

Just because I am in the creative songwriting and performing end of the industry and you are in the dinner theater end of the industry desperate for someone to take you more seriously doesn't mean you will help your cause by ignoring my answers.

I did not ignore your post, I simply expanded upon it and added more useful information. Please reread my post more carefully. You have a bad habit of attacking me for things that I never said or intended, putting words in my mouth. You seem to have a grudge against me for some unkown reason, and your negativity has no place here.

My post was intended for the benefit of fraserhutch. And frankly, I gave some good advice, based on years of experience doing this. I posted an extensive description of how controller keyboard programming is done, both by myself and others I've worked with. I've not only programmed a ton of shows for himself, but have also been hired to program shows and tours for others. I shared some good info that is not easily found, and do not deserve the personal attack that you have laid on me.

As far as a list of midi patchbays, I named those that I have personally owned. Except the JL Cooper MSB+ v.2, which I owned the original version very briefly. I also own the JL Cooper MSB 16/20, but that is overkill for the purposes of this thread.

Finally, I haven't played dinner theater in nearly 15 years. And perhaps you should check out my film scores sometime, or my album that charted number one nationally. Or perhaps go to the theater and enjoy one of my stage works that are being performed around the country. I make my living full-time from the performing and creative end of the business, and enjoy what I do very much.

I am not desperate for anyone to take me more seriously, certainly not on any message board. I posted only to help out fraserhutch, who is one of the good guys around here and who had a legitimate question.
 
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allrics said:
I am hoping I can get a simple answer to this question. I want to use a live setup that includes a Korg PA80 and a Roland rack unit.
I would like to use the right side of the Korg for one side and the left side of the Korg for the Roland.
How do I control that and what sounds I use on each side as I switch from one song to the next in the gig?

There's two way to do this.

If the korg has splittable keyboard zones, you could set each zone to a different midi channel. Then you would use different program changes on each zone to call up the respective sounds.

The other way is to program the zones into the Roland. This is often the way to go, for a variety of reasons.

What Roland box are you using?
 
Thanks for the replies. Yes my Korg is splittable. I can put a piano on my right hand and brass on my left.
I don't have a rack unit yet. I am looking real hard at the Fantom-XR.
 
allrics said:
Thanks for the replies. Yes my Korg is splittable. I can put a piano on my right hand and brass on my left.
I don't have a rack unit yet. I am looking real hard at the Fantom-XR.

The Fantom XR is a great module. Especially good is that you can put six SRX expansion boards into it. So you could add the SRX-10 brass board and the SRX-11 piano board to it and have killer sounding patches. Though the onboard stuff is good too.

You can also split patches very easily in the Fantom XR. I prefer to split inside the box because that means *any* controller can be used with it. So if a keyboard goes down, all you have to do is find another keyboard of any type with midi out and you can keep going. If the programming is inside the keyboard you are kind of screwed if it goes down, because there go all your splits and program changes.
 
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SonicAlbert said:
I posted only to help out fraserhutch, who is one of the good guys around here and who had a legitimate question.
And, by implication, I am one of the bad guys around here who comes on the board only to hurt, harm and confuse the good guys with legitimate questions.

Not the case.
 
ssscientist said:
And, by implication, I am one of the bad guys around here who comes on the board only to hurt, harm and confuse the good guys with legitimate questions.

Not the case.

I never said that. I'm getting very tired of your personal attacks, and having to defend myself against them.

Please, please, please try to stay on topic.

I never dreamed when I took all that time to write the post about programming live rigs that it would lead to this. I'm starting to wonder why I even bother.
 
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Thanks for the info, SA. It's much appreciated. BTW, I did order a Rane SM82, I'll let you know what I think when it gets here.

Thanks for your input as well SS. Try not to be so thin-skinned - IMO one of the beauties of a forum like this is that one can take info and ideas presented and run with them, elaborate on them, whatever. Your response is on the record, and I for one don't think SA tried to slight you.

I did have a Digital Systems MX8. I'll be damned if I know what I did with it. Maybe I can dig it up somewhere.....

Thanks all for the input.
 
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fraserhutch said:
Thanks for the info, SQ. It's much appreciated. BTW, I did order a Rane SM82, I'll let you know what I think when it gets here.

Great, I'll be interested in what you think of it. Seemed like it would be perfect for your needs.
 
Woohoo! Scrounged around in the garage today, and guess what I dug up...... my old Digital Music Corp. MX-8!

And it still powers up!

lol now I have to see if I can dig up the user's manual as it's been so long........

Thanks for the advice, all!

Also dug up an Alesis Microverb, A Korg SDD 3300, and a Roland Dep5.

And a Soundcraft Spirit Rackmount (8 channel) and a Fostex 2016 line mixer 8-channel rackmount.

I'm such a packrat :)
 
I can't believe you had that stuff just sitting back there! The SDD-3300 is a great delay box, I used to own one. There's some great stuff you can do with as far as using envelopes on the delays. A little bit on the noisy side by modern standards, but a great box nevertheless.
 
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