Panning strategy for a jazz guitar / bass duo

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Ukiah Bass

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I've recently started recording live performances of my jazz duo with direct inputs from the jazz guitar and acoustic bass. It's easy enough to pan the instruments with a DAW to their "gig formation" of guitar on stage left and bass on stage right. But traditional wisdom places the bass in the middle of the stereo field to maximize use of both speakers. The guitarist likes the separation of panning the guitar hard left, and bass to hard right. I'm interested in hearing about other mixing strategies because I'm hearing a slight "hole" in the middle of the sound field with both instruments panned LR. Suggestions are appreciated! Thank you.

FWIW, I'm using Presonus Studio One "producer ed." as my DAW.
 
You could pan both instruments dead center and add a small amount of chorus to the guitar and a bit of room reverb to the bass. That would give each instrument it's own space without having to hard pan.
 
ocnor said:
You could pan both instruments dead center and add a small amount of chorus to the guitar and a bit of room reverb to the bass. That would give each instrument it's own space without having to hard pan.
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Thanks for that suggestion. I'm slightly bound by the guitar player's extensive use of effects. He loves the Pat Metheny vibe so there's often quite a bit of echo and/or reverb, distortion and other effects applied to his instrument. I'm usually playing acoustic bass, and it's always dry.

The best thing I've come up with yet is placing his guitar at hard L, and putting the bass at about 80 R, which lets the bass bleed into the center. Then I put a light reverb on the stereo master. But that's just my "newbie" take on this challenge. Hence my stirring the pot on this forum!
 
I should have asked what kind of jazz you play. When you said that you were recording direct I assumed that you meant clean dry guitar with no effects.
 
Is there any way you can record without effects (at least time based ones like delay and reverb), and add them in the mix? Putting the guitar maybe 80% or so L and then having the echo repeats off to the right would probably help the two gel a little better...
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
Is there any way you can record without effects (at least time based ones like delay and reverb), and add them in the mix? Putting the guitar maybe 80% or so L and then having the echo repeats off to the right would probably help the two gel a little better...
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This is a recording scenario where I'm capturing the signal "live" during performances. To do this, I take a direct feed out of the guitarist's amp, which has already added effects the way he wants his sound sculpted for the audience. Nothing like a studio scenario where a mixer might add effects to a dry signal. Likewise, I grab a direct signal from my bass off a REDDI, which also goes straight into a newly acquired Zoom H6.

Previously I've been using a Sennheiser AT825 stereo mic in front of the band to capture live signals into a Marantz PMD661, but that's been a take-it-or-leave-it signal that includes audience noise, plates and silverware clanking, or fly-overs by aircraft (we play outside primarily at Northern California wineries). It's also uneven -- at some venues, the stereo mic has been quashed right up against the band (such as in a restaurant); in others, I've been able to place the mic 10-15 feet in front of the band. Always a danger as people are usually milling about and likely to trip over the cable or knock into the mic stand. 'Till now, I've taken the stereo mic's signal, done light processing in a DAW and output to a mono file. I stick the processed sound file into a video and get really good quality that way for YouTube. Samples are on my ReverbNation profile.

My new strategy is to EQ the direct signals and layer in the audience noise as desired, mostly at the beginning and end of a song. By going direct, I have total control over the most important sound (our instruments). I'm hoping for "near studio quality" sound at live performances. The last piece of the puzzle is getting the panning down.
 
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Ukiah Bass said:
This is a recording scenario where I'm capturing the signal "live" during performances. To do this, I take a direct feed out of the guitarist's amp, which has already added effects the way he wants his sound sculpted for the audience. Nothing like a studio scenario where a mixer might add effects to a dry signal. Likewise, I grab a direct signal from my bass off a REDDI, which also goes straight into a newly acquired Zoom H6.
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So, is it a live performance you're looking to record? Or do you mean "live" as in the two of you are playing together, but alone in your studio room with the expressed purpose of making a record?

If the former, there's only so much you can do, but if the later, in almost every instance you're using time-based effects, you want to add them in the mix. I'm a guitarist who absolutely loves soloing with delay, but when tracking I'm recording totally dry, with just the amp's distortion as my only effect. This lets me use stereo delay in the mix and gives me a MUCH clearer signal than capturing the delay along with the raw tracks. Your guitarist may not like this, but there's a reason it's the status quo.
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
So, is it a live performance you're looking to record? Or do you mean "live" as in the two of you are playing together, but alone in your studio room with the expressed purpose of making a record?

If the former, there's only so much you can do, but if the later, in almost every instance you're using time-based effects, you want to add them in the mix. I'm a guitarist who absolutely loves soloing with delay, but when tracking I'm recording totally dry, with just the amp's distortion as my only effect. This lets me use stereo delay in the mix and gives me a MUCH clearer signal than capturing the delay along with the raw tracks. Your guitarist may not like this, but there's a reason it's the status quo.
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I record primarily live performance @ gigs. He wants to make a "studio CD" later this year. I'll broach this idea of recording dry but not sure how receptive he'll be since all the mixing will have to rely on effects other than his own. He's spent a lot of time fine tuning those with his amp's modeling capabilities plus an outboard processor to create specific tones. That's why it's easier to just record him wet - especially since I do all the mixing.

I'm going over to his studio in an hour for our weekly practice session. He wants to record his guitar dry through my REDDI. Maybe it will trigger some ideas for him.
 
Ukiah Bass said:
IBut traditional wisdom places the bass in the middle of the stereo field to maximize use of both speakers. The guitarist likes the separation of panning the guitar hard left, and bass to hard right. I'm interested in hearing about other mixing strategies because I'm hearing a slight "hole" in the middle of the sound field with both instruments panned LR. Suggestions are appreciated!
Click to expand...
There would be a slight hole in the centre if there's only two different instruments panned opposite each other, hard. I would continue to record as you do; I appreciate Drew's point that there's a reason why effects are added after, but in truth, that's just one way. Your guitarist has obviously worked on their sound and knows how they want to hear it as they play. That just as valid an approach.
I'd be inclined to keep the bass in the centre and either do as ocnor suggested
pan both instruments dead center and add a small amount of chorus to the guitar and a bit of room reverb to the bass. That would give each instrument it's own space without having to hard pan
Click to expand...
or pan the guitar slightly left or right of centre. Just like the modern day British politician.
 
You might try copying the bass track, using maybe 250hz (or whatever crossover hz you prefer) and below on one, pan it in the middle, the other use 250 (the same hz as the middle track) and pan it to the right. That way you have the lows in the middle, and the instruments panned to the live prespective.

Bassically, Michael
 
Split the bass - send the bottom end to the middle and the top end/definition/image cue to the side.
Do the same with the guitar (might be harder with effect though}).
Have you considered mono? It can be great OR use a stereo pair to record from the room in addition to the feeds you are using and line your panned instruments up with where they appear in the room image.
 
Michael4bass said:
You might try copying the bass track, using maybe 250hz (or whatever crossover hz you prefer) and below on one, pan it in the middle, the other use 250 (the same hz as the middle track) and pan it to the right. That way you have the lows in the middle, and the instruments panned to the live prespective.

Bassically, Michael
Click to expand...

rayc said:
Split the bass - send the bottom end to the middle and the top end/definition/image cue to the side.
Do the same with the guitar (might be harder with effect though}).
Have you considered mono? It can be great OR use a stereo pair to record from the room in addition to the feeds you are using and line your panned instruments up with where they appear in the room image.
Click to expand...

Great idea on splitting the signal - I'll try that today. The room acoustics suck, unfortunately - a definite reason to go direct. Yesterday, I also recorded the guitar dry and will try and recreate his effects with my DAW. Should be interesting to compare that channel with his wet feed.
 
OK, I tried the idea of putting the bass @ C with a low-pass @ 250hZ, and a duplicate bass @ hard-R with a hi-pass @ 250hZ. The guitar was panned hard-L. Then I had the guitarist listen to this mix #2 compared to an earlier mix #1 of guitar panned hard-L and bass @ R80. The split bass mix definitely provided a solid center while still enabling separation from the guitar. Interestingly, however, the guitarist said: "I like earlier mix better as the bass seems rounder and louder than mix 2."

I'm still open to alternative ideas. But for this project, ultimately I've got to go with the guitarist's preference as he's the bandleader and songwriter. The tricky thing is I have much better listening equipment here than the guitarist - and I listen to the mix on multiple systems. I think he's just listening with headphones and a small cheap set of flat studio monitors on his PC. I've suggested the importance of using better reference points but what are you gonna do? :)
 
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Put the guitarist in his place - under heel.

PPOst an MP3 in the MP3 clinic and let the sharp ears there compare the two mixes and let you know which works. It's definitley worth trying because many people there are good listeners.

Also try using the room recording as you stereo image template - find the instrument places from it, place the bass & guitar effectively over the stereo image of the room recording then removed the room recording.
 
I will post recordings later. These were from a session where we were working out arrangements so they're not for the public. The guitarist is the bandleader and approves songs we release based on performance quality. I'm good with that policy.
 
The point of posting in the MP3 clinic is to get advice on making the track sound good or better at least.
 
So far for guitar and bass only, we're liking the guitar panned hard left and the bass panned at 80 right. I just did my first field recording at a jazz winery gig three days ago with a Zoom H6. In the sample gig recording just below, the 3 direct inputs include a feed from the guitar's amp (post effects; sorry, his noise gate was a bit off in this example), a WAV loop with rhythm guitar (also projected to the audience through the PA), and a REDDI feeding the dry bass signal from my fretless Rob Allen Deep 4. I mixed and mastered the files in the Presonus Studio One DAW. I then inserted the processed WAV file into Sony Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum and synchronized it with video feeds from two cameras and random environmental takes I shot during a break.

The audio mix used the settings above and placed the rhythm loop @ dead center.

Gig Recording
 
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Seems like the Youtube link is not working, it has dots in the url.

Just some thoughts, I'm no expert:
Having one instrument hard left and the other 80% right, isn't that much too wide? Perhaps try something like 60% left and 40% right?

Splitting the signal into low for centering and the rest for hard panning, wouldn't that make the stereo image wobbly? Low notes seem more centered and high notes seem more panned, instead of having an instrument at one place in your stereo image.
 
Guess this site doesn't work like others w/URLs. Anyway, I corrected the link above.

I've tried several PAN settings. The guitarist likes 'em wide, and since he's the bandleader, I go with what he wants. I understand the strategy of placing bass in the center, as discussed above. Would appreciate you feedback, nevertheless, after listening. Thanks.
 
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