Panning (?) Question...

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ethos

ethos

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I would have used the search function for this, but to be honest, I wouldn't know what to search for....

I was experimenting with mixing last night, and couldn't figure out how to do something.
Pretend your waering headphones. It's simple enough to pan from left to right, but how do you move things foward and backwards?

i.e, how would you make a snare move towards your forhead, or to the back of your head?

I apologize if this an incredibly stupid question. :o
 
My only suggestion, might be with some different volume, and some eq that lets it poke out a bit. More volume might make it come forward a bit, and less would sit it back some. What software do you use? I know some have surround sound, and you can seperate things a bit different with that... :confused:
 
So there isn't some secret trick I just don't know about? awesome....and bad at the same time, would have been cool.

I tried messing with volume and eq.
I also tried duplicating the instrument I wanted to pan foward/back, panning them differently, adding different eq etc...
There were results, but they wernt really appearant. Which led me to believe there was something i just didnt know.

I'm Using Reason 3.0.
I'm pretty sure you're not able to mix in surround sound with that program, maybe i'm wrong?

'Preciate the help though, you have settled my mind a bit.
 
Try experimenting with different reverbs. That should create the perception of depth.
 
Yep, reverb will create the illustion of distance.
 
If I can find the thread, I wrote one exactly about this question, so I'll try to look it up.

I'll see if I can over simplify the explination for this:


To move things fowards and backwards, require the use of delay, EQ, reverb, volume and how the source was recorded.

I'll say this, using reverbs and volume are simply not enough to recreate how the ears perceive distance in real life.

This is where the true secrets of 3 dimensional "world class" mixing come in.


If you really want the 2 hour explination, I'll consider giving it again for the sake of keeping it fresh in my head, however, considering the shit I had to go through to learn this is no easy picnic when it comes to free and good information!

But honestly, I'm a good sport and I aspire to be the type of engineer that brings others up with me (if they truely diserve it).

So if you ask that of me, then I'll give the full explination.
 
ethos said:
So there isn't some secret trick I just don't know about? awesome....and bad at the same time, would have been cool.

I recall a thread (hmmm or was it a user manual....) that also suggested using the attack setting on a high end compressor. (Ah yes, I recall a thread in the Universal Audio forum now) So to sum it up, reverb and compression (attack setting) might provide the restults. Let me know. I primarily use reverb for this but will try the compression trick sometime soon.

(PS: Also hope LeeRosario will dish up his secret sauce once again - I promise never to ask again ;-) )
 
Ok, so I found the post...and so far I haven't seemed to change my mind too much on it, so I figure it's still fresh information.


However, I want to add that the best senario in using short delays to "fortify" your instrument position, is to stretch it out as much as possible before it becomes apparent that there's a delay attached to it.

A delay at or up to about 20ms cannot be decoded by the human ear. But it can be felt and used to create dimension to the hearing mechanism.

LeeRosario said:
A) It's a U47
B) The room will always make the difference. In fact, in extreme cases when you can't hear the difference, you can feel the difference.

I'll bet my life that if that album was recorded anywhere else, it would of sounded completely different.

So it's extremely relevant.


But for all:

To generalize this topic and to hopefully nudge some souls in the right direction: (after Im done with this, it'll probably do me good to stay away from the internet for a while).

One thing that's extremely over looked is how to truly achieve the 3 dimensions in recording. Most people are half there. But before I can elaborate on that, some very basic concepts.

1) When you record something, it is inherently 2 dimensional in nature the moment it's captured on it's medium. (Analog tape, Harddrive, whatever). In the same way you draw something on paper, it will be flat and undefined in space.

So the question you should ask yourself before you even touch the faders is:

"So how do I get it to 3D?"

Good question...

2) In mixing, an engineer has to be familiar with the terms "Height, Width and Depth". This is how you will place your instruments effectively in thier space. Professionally called the sound stage.

Height is achieved through EQ. Higher frequencies tend to feel higher on the plane than lower freqs. I beleive that was already answered.

Width is a tricky one. Because there are many things that can effect how wide something actually is or might feel like. For example "The width of analog" is an expression that discribes the properties of 2inch analog tape.

Stereo expansion is another method, however not usually advisable. By stretching out the stereo image you risk putting it out of phase. That translates into a very funky and unsolidified mix.

You can achieve width by simply panning, and/or in combination with delay or something along the lines of a stereo delay.

Depth is probably the second hardest to achieve next to height. Traditionally, you achieve this through intricate use of delay, reverb and EQ (not in a normal fashion). These are the tools that start you off to replicating the real source in it's real space.

Also, how you mic your source and how much air you put between the source and the mic makes a difference.

3) There is a big difference in what we call "powerpot panning" and virtual panning.

As I once stated before,

Powerpot panning is the act of physically panning something left or right
Virtual Panning is the act of panning something with an effect to create the illusion of a certain location.

Thats why you can't do brunt mixwork with headphones. Not because some asshole said so, but because our ears and brains behave differently with headphones.

4) If you're going to mix truly in depth, then you cannot hope to do so effectively until you understand how the human brain and ears perceive sound.

So the huge difference between pro mixing and undefined mixing is the expert use of the binaural effect. This will mean you'll have to understand 3 major things: The Haas Effect, the masking effect and the physics behind reverberation and how the ear perceives sound based on reflections. It's more complex than just a "source and then reverb" relationship.

So consequently, simply panning shit left and right and dabbing some reverb on it isn't enough. Not with a 500 dollar system and not with a multimillion dollar SSL equipped studio. These concepts are still true anywhere because of these basic principles.

It's like shading in your 2D drawing. It might look 3d, but it's still 2D.

It's the difference between drawing two identical objects on paper and drawing to identical objects, but then being able to cut them out and manipulate them.

So I won't go in detail, but I will leave you with these questions:

-What about delay, delay settings, aux panning to that delay and the amount of level set to that delay?

-What about good quality reverb, reverb settings, aux panning to that reverb and the amount of level set to that reverb?

-What relationship does reverb and delay have with each other?

-Do you think if you recorded something thats not too far off EQ wise, that you *have* to attack it with EQ first? Or is there another and more effective method to try before EQing? *hint*

-How about phase relationships?

-Is Lee Rosario full of shit? (damn right he is) :D. But is he right? (I'll leave that up to you)

If you already know this, ignore it. It's review at best.

Good day Gentlemen :)
 
LeeRosario said:
Ok, so I found the post...and so far I haven't seemed to change my mind too much on it, so I figure it's still fresh information.


However, I want to add that the best senario in using short delays to "fortify" your instrument position, is to stretch it out as much as possible before it becomes apparent that there's a delay attached to it.

A delay at or up to about 20ms cannot be decoded by the human ear. But it can be felt and used to create dimension to the hearing mechanism.
Lee, you should put this to a word document, that you could cut and paste into here, when needed. I generally save web pages of this type, for future reference.
Thanks.
Ed
 
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Dogman said:
Lee, you should put this to a word document, that you could cut and paste into here, when needed. I generally save web pages of this type, for future reference.
Thanks.
Ed


Yeah, some time soon, when Im not so preoccupied with research or work or something like that. I want to go through a lot of the posts I've left on here.

Not just for anyone who wants it, but really for myself, too! Tons of good information that lays dormant in my head until I end up typing it.

So I guess it's good for me to have my thoughts on paper.
Soon enough, I promise!
 
LeeRosario does a stereo delay do the same thing as a plugin delay? r they the same thing? sorry if that's a stupid question lol.
 
djclueveli said:
LeeRosario does a stereo delay do the same thing as a plugin delay? r they the same thing? sorry if that's a stupid question lol.

Oh no it's alright, good question.


Well a delay is either stereo or mono. Either as a plug-in, or as an outside unit. As an aux, it's output will eventually be stereo anyway, the only thing that changes is the ability to have settings in independant of left or right inside the delay unit itself.

Except now, since programs like pro tools give you the option of using your mono delays as "dual mono", then it acts like a stereo delay.


If you can affect a left channel independant of your right channel, and set it up that way, then you know it's a stereo delay.


And just like you would patch it in a real life analog console/patchbay setup, you would really only need a mono source to plug-in to your stereo delay, the effect will still be in stereo.
 
LeeRosario said:
Ok, so I found the post...and so far I haven't seemed to change my mind too much on it, so I figure it's still fresh information.

You are a scholar and a gentleman. Thank you.
 
thanks LeeRosario. u always give good advice and i appreciate that :)
 
holy shit batman robin cat food!!!

that holophonic thing is so trippy! LOL! I was listening to it with a pair of headphones in a very dark room while closing my eyes. OMG! that match box is above my head ... no, behind me.. or am i just stoned? lol

damn, how'd they do that ?? Im very impressed lol.. I wanna learn :D:D
 
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