Overhead(s)

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Gear_Junky

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My drum mic setup is pretty simple - AKG D112 on kick, SM57 on snare and a couple of CAD Equitek E-1000-s on the overheads. I cross them and aim one at the hi-hat and the other at the ride cymbal, yet they're about 4-5 feet up from the snare, so they pickup everything.

Well, Shure's "Microphone Techniques for Recording" brochure recommends that if you only have 4 mics, to use 1 for the overhead and 1 for the hi-hat (close). Is that better? Also, can I still get stereo imaging miking like that and how do I pan? Do people usually pan the snare much?

Another thing: I have a 10" Zildjian A Custom splash, which sounds lovely. But through the headphones and recorded that particular cymbal seems to have nasty piercing overtones, or it sounds like it's overloading the input. But it's not really directly in front of a mic, it's mounted to a floor stand (and no mics touch that) and its neighbor 12" A Custom splash seems to sound fine. Could it be "too thin" for recording?

Thanks.
 
Gear_Junky said:
.

Well, Shure's "Microphone Techniques for Recording" brochure recommends that if you only have 4 mics, to use 1 for the overhead and 1 for the hi-hat (close). Is that better? Also, can I still get stereo imaging miking like that and how do I pan? Do people usually pan the snare much?
Click to expand...

I'm a bit surprised that the brochure suggest that setting.
Overheads pick up the hi hats fine. If I had 4 mics the only reason I would mic the hi-hat would be if they played an important part in the song.

Most people pan the snare center.
 
That sounds pretty goofy. I really hate close-miking hi hats, honestly. The few times I have recorded with a hi hat mic I never end up using any of it. I just use what's in the overheads.

I also use the term "overheads" pretty loosely. I walk around the room while a drummer is playing and position the mics where they sound best. This usually seems to end up with the "left" mic (drummer's left, that is - the one nearest the snare and hi hat) being in a fairly "standard" overhead position but the "right" mic (nearest to ride and toms) being a bit lower, so as to pick up more of the toms, and sometimes even behind the drummer, which often seems to provide a better mix of the ride and toms.

But give up an overhead for a hi-hat mic? Don't think so!

--Lee
 
Thanks, that's some real info, keep 'em coming!

Right now I have a single stand with a stereo-bar to mount both my mics, but it looks like I could be better off using two stands. So, basically, Flier, you treat them as 2 separate mics instead of a "stereo" pair, right?
 
Yeah I don't usually treat them as true "stereo" overheads unless they happen to sound best that way (although I will still usually pan them somewhat left and right just for spatial quality). Definitely use 2 stands and move them around, don't presume that the "prescribed" methods are the best. Trust your ears.

Also be aware of phasing problems. Sometimes you can hear some nasty comb filtering and then move a mic a foot to the left or up or down and it goes away. Using only 4 mics, this is much less of a problem than it is for people who close mic each drum separately, but it can still be a factor.

--Lee
 
Sorry there flier. I'll have to disagree with you there.

The overheads should be used to give a stereo image and a bit of ambiance
(although a pair for just ambiance in the room would be better).

A stereo image will give you the most natural sound. Panning them hard left and right will also give a good natural sound. This will also leave space in the mix for the centered tracks.

A well placed stereo mic configuration will also help the drums sound big and aviod phase problems.
 
Ok, I was recording the other day and got this really nasty hi overtones from my smallest 10" splash cymbal, which sounds beautiful live. Was that "comb filtering" or "phase" problem? Could the cymbal be "too thin" for recording? I didn't get that before from the same mics/cymbals. It was just piercing, although the levels were fine and everything else sounded fine and the mics weren't even aimed at the splash.
 
Yeah, you are probably getting a comb filtering effect, all other things being equal (since you say you have recorded with the same mics and cymbals before), and assuming you are not recording with your EQ accidently on where you weren't before. :) Comb filtering will accentuate certain frequencies big time while others will just seem to drop out. Depending on which frequencies they are, the effect can be cool, or it can be very nasty. Generally though, whenever somebody says they have drums or cymbals that sound "thin" or "distant" or you are getting overtones from hell, I suspect comb filtering.

The way you can tell for sure is to listen back to each mic separately and see if you can still hear the nasty tone. If you can't - if you only hear it when you combine the signals from all the mics - the problem is due to comb filtering. Usually this can be fixed by moving a mic in relation to the other mics. If you have a control room, have somebody walk around moving a mic until you hear the nasty tone go away. If you don't, you can roll tape while YOU walk around (or someone walks around you while you're playing), and call out where the mic is each time, like "Now I'm moving a foot to the left!" You are bound to eventually hit a spot where the effect of comb filtering is pleasing rather than annoying.

--Lee
 
Ok, that's good info. Now, I was using a crossed technique - where the mic heads were almost coincident. What's the best placing to avoid this "comb filtering"? Is it easier to deal with all of this by just getting a stereo mic, like an Audio Technica?

And another question: for this effect to be noticeable, does it matter where the source is located relative to mics? Like the small splash was in the middle of the kit and sounded nasty, but the next splash, a little over to the right - sounded fine in the mics, just like the rest of the drums and cymbals. Thanks.
 
Shailat -

Just because a pair of ambient mics are not used in a specific position as overheads, doesn't mean you can't create a good stereo image with them. I get a nice stereo image with one "overhead" in front of the drummer and one behind, or wherever they happen to sound good.

Also, there are a couple of different philosophies when it comes to recording drums: one says to close mic each drum and just use the overheads for a bit of ambience. The other says to get the best sound you can from one or two mics which pick up the whole kit, and use close mics (if any) just to accentuate the attacks. Either one can work, but it is easier for the home recording enthusiast to get a good sound with just overheads with a bit of kick and snare added in, than to go for the whole close miking setup - that is, unless your recording room sounds absolutely horrendous, and even then I would be more inclined to try to fix the room. The reason is, it takes a lot more expensive gear to get a set of drums to sound good with everything close miked. You need to buy all those mics, plus possibly as many preamps, plus decent noise gates to minimize phase problems.

To me, it's easier just to get the room sounding decent, get the kit sounding decent, throw up a couple of overheads in the "sweet spots" of the room plus a mic on the kick drum and one on the snare, with the majority of the sound coming from the overheads. Just about all of my favorite bands - the Stones, Beatles, Zeppelin, Who etc. - made their records this way and I never heard anybody complain that they didn't have a nice stereo image. :-) As usual, there is more than one right way to do things and each has its benefits and its drawbacks... it's up to you to weigh them and decide which one you can live with easier.

--Lee
 
Hi Gear Junky -

There is no way to "avoid" comb filtering; it's a fact of life, or rather of sound, whenever you are working with more than one microphone or you have a room that has a lot of reflections. Comb filtering is caused by the very short delay between the signal at one mic and the signal at another (or by the delay between a source mic and the reflections bouncing off the room walls). If you're curious, you can duplicate this effect with a delay unit on a very short setting (like less than 50 ms). If you adjust the delay length at these very short times, you will notice that it begins to act more like an equalizer - that is certain frequencies become louder or softer than others. The only question is whether this effect sounds good or bad! It can be minimized by recording with only one mic in a dead room, or multiple close mics in a dead room with noise gates, but I find it easier to just move the mics around until they sound good. :)

Obviously, having the mics set in those particular places was causing a major hike in the exact frequency range of the overtones of your splash cymbal. Simply moving the two mics a bit farther apart, pointing them in a slightly different direction, moving one lower to the kit than the other, etc. will all change the frequencies that get filtered. Try it with just one overhead until you get that sounding good, then add the other one and if the combined signals sound nasty, move the second one around till it doesn't!

--Lee
 
I'm happy for you that your mic placement works for you how ever,

A stereo image is a important factor to achive a balenced NATURAL sound.
Your suggestion of placing overheads in different places and higer-lower would
severe the phase problems will a stereo micing configuration would most likly eliminate these problems.

You mention that you the majority of your sound comes from the overheads.
I feel that that is a mistake.
The overheads should provide a good blend in order to fill the close mic sound and ambiance and cymbls. How do you add effects to your overhead? is the cymbls a main feature in your sound? were does your low end and punch come from ? you will not acheive a good rock sound from using the majority of your sound from the overheads - I assure you.

How do you pan your overheads ? if the mics are not placed on the same plane how do you get a natural sound?!? panning a bit to the left and then more to the right?.

I would be more then happy to hear your drum recording. Please upload a mp3 for me to hear.
 
Shailat wrote:

>>Your suggestion of placing overheads in different places and higer-lower would
severe the phase problems will a stereo micing configuration would most likly eliminate these problems.<<

Not true. Phase problems can occur with any mic placement involving more than one mic and/or a very "live" room with lots of reflections. Makes no difference whether the mics are "stereo" or not, although in fact it does help to listen in mono and make sure two sides of a stereo configuration are not phase-cancelling each other. This is because two sides of a stereo signal are more likely to be very close and cancel each other than two distinctly different signals.

>>You mention that you the majority of your sound comes from the overheads.
I feel that that is a mistake...
you will not acheive a good rock sound from using the majority of your sound from the overheads - I assure you.
<<

Hmm, I sure wish you'd tell that to George Martin, Jimmy Page, Glyn Johns and countless other great rock producers and engineers who recorded drums exactly the way I suggest. I'm sure they would really like to know that they didn't in fact achieve a good rock sound that way.

>>The overheads should provide a good blend in order to fill the close mic sound and ambiance and cymbls. How do you add effects to your overhead? is the cymbls a main feature in your sound? were does your low end and punch come from ? <<

If you have decent mics, a good drum kit and a decent sounding recording room, and your mics are placed correctly, they will pick up the entire range of the drum kit. If you stand 6 feet back from a good sounding drum kit, you can hear everything, right? Plenty of low end punch, plenty of high end in the cymbals. Considering that a good mic is supposed to be picking up everything that your ears hear, what makes you think anything would be missing? It isn't. It's only when things are close miked with directional mics that you don't pick up everything so you need lots more close mics.

I don't generally add effects to the overheads - possibly a tiny bit of compression or reverb for the overall sound. But, in general you don't need effects if you start with a good sounding drum kit, a decent sounding room and a couple of decent mics. This is how people used to record prior to the mid 1970's, when it became fashionable to close mic everything in a really dead room so that artificial ambience could be added later. Like I said earlier, either way can work, but lots of people have now forgotten that you don't have to have artificial effects if your instruments and room sound good to begin with. There are still many engineers who prefer to try and record things so that not the least bit of EQ, compression or reverb is needed. It's a challenge, and a great exercise, and it's especially good for home recording enthusiasts because lower grade outboard gear often sounds cheesy anyway. :)

>>How do you pan your overheads ? if the mics are not placed on the same plane how do you get a natural sound?!? panning a bit to the left and then more to the right?.<<

Since the mics generally end up roughly left and right I can still pan them left and right and they sound good. The fact that one may be lower than the other is only to achieve balance in the first place, so it doesn't sound unnatural.

>>I would be more then happy to hear your drum recording. Please upload a mp3 for me to hear.<<

OK, just to make things interesting, I will make an MP3 of a rough mix, where there is NO EQ or reverb or anything added, so you can hear the raw tracks. I won't be able to do it till the weekend, but I'll let ya know.

--Lee
 
just to add a little to ambient-micing of drums argument.

at the minute (mainly due to the lack of having two mics of the same model etc), i'm using just one, yes, you read it right, microphone to record my three piece drum kit.

it's a AKG C1000s and i place it about a foot in front of the bass drum and about two foot above it, facing towards the snare.

The result i get is extremely well balanced recording.

bizarre eh?
 
Let me just say flier that if your happy with your sound then by all means use it. Thats what counts and not G. Martin and Bro's said this and that.

You didn't read my post acuretly.
I wrote that a stereo configuration ( not placment) will be most likley a safe way to avoid phase problems. How ever I didn't write that this would most likley be with a stereo grill to grill placment as X-Y.

With a stereo configuration the panning helps to eliminate phasing as well. You can not eliminate totally phase problems in any setting but when micing a stereo configuration like the X-Y and panning then hard left right would be one of the better soulutions to phase problems and sound good as well. I personaly like to use a v shape or - overheads pointing at the 2 sides of the drums left and right.
I don't think it's so critical the high to low posittion of the mics. What I was refering to was to the fact that if you place mics that are not balanced left to right and they are not on the same plane, when you pan, the chances of your kit sounding natural are weak. You'll hear a stronger kick on one side compared the the other. Not to mention that if your claimed "sweet spots" are not to the side of the drums but are in front and another in the back of the drummer,or only one towards the back and one a bit in front, You'll get a mess.
You might solve phasing with that but not a balanced reliable sound for overheads. Placing the mics on the same horizontal plane from my experience will also help minimize phase interaction.

>>Hmm, I sure wish you'd tell that to George Martin, Jimmy Page, Glyn Johns and >>countless other great rock producers and engineers who recorded drums exactly >>the way I suggest. I'm sure they would really like to know that they didn't >>in fact achieve a good rock sound that way.

Well I never sat in on one of there sessions to be honest -did you?
I would hardly like to have a beatles drum sound on my clients albums unless I was going for a retro sound. Do you also aspire to their panning or their use of limited tracks?.
All the statements of "don't use Eq -compression-get the "holy wonderfull room sound" is great and correcct - for the text book.
Of course somebody also has to come up with the mantra "every room is different and there is no single way to record best it depends on blah blah blah..."
and Of COURSE I subscribe to that piont of veiw, and experimenting is the correct system . It is the corecct outlook on sound
but sound it is and not philosopy. How does it sound that is the question and not "to be or not". I'll move mics acourding to the room and the kit but never use overheads as the majority of my sound unless there is a problem.
Defenitly not for rock !. I love LED ZEP. but I also love L. Armstrong so should I now record a trumpet like he did it?.

I have been recording drums in to many to count different inviorments from studios to television to live concerts in the open and closed space. It is to my beleif that to achive a contemporary commercial sound that is punchy with open options and natural well blended sound flexable to toy with, it can not
be done from overheads as the majority of your sound definetly for rock.
Perhaps you heard from G. Martin how he did it. I havn't spoken to him lately but let me tell you that in my humble years of experience I find mine to work well. Go and listen to the mp3's.

Although i'm all for drums or any thing else, sound good with out manipulating it's natural sound but anybody who has worked in a real world situation knows that for the text book or to say it sounds professional but give me a break... Just using a mic is already not a natural thing not to mention the all famous
" I run it through my wonderfull preamp the "ampape"

You play me one of your suggetions and we will hear it out. If you can get away with out Eq and compression and little close micing and no reverb (or only a bit on the overheads)or gates and get levels of the seperate part of the kit to sound good, and get a killer sound, then then this is something I would like to hear. I'm always trying to learn something new.

Here is 3examples of recent recordings I just did. They are after the mix process with processing. Each in a different room and different drum kits.
link -http://diskwise.com
Email -mwohl@inter.net.il
Password -Music

Download drums.mp3 (there is a bit of a screech of the guitar strings in it as well) - medium room size then download "Fullmix.mp3" to hear it in context.

blastix.mp3 - using Blastix in a big room

Mixed.mp3 to hear a full mix of a third mp3 with the group.

[Edited by Shailat on 09-22-2000 at 05:59]
 
Guys, you both have good points, which are helpful. I just think one shouldn't talk down on something one hasn't tried or even tried enough times. How about "every song is different", every song needs something unique? We share techniques here and the beautiful things about them is: you can know and use as many of them as you want at no xtra charge :) A collection of good techniques is better than a collection of good mics. Now, does anybody argue about mics the way you do about technique? C'mon. Every mic can have it's application and so can every technique. I'm sure there's plenty of jazz bands that were recorded with just one mic on the kit or even just one or two mics in the room. Humans only have 2 ears and we hear it all. On the other hands there's a lot of great rock music that was close-miked, heavily processed and that's great, too. Thanks to all of you, I'll be sure to try it all, although it's harder for me to move mics around to find sweet spots, cuz I'm the only one doing the playing and the recording. I wish someone would play my drums for me to move the mics and set the levels! Peace, dudes :)
 
Um, yeah Gear Junky, that's exactly how I feel. And Shailat, if you re-read the very first post to you on this subject, I wrote:

>>Also, there are a couple of different philosophies when it comes to recording drums....Either one can work, but it is easier for the ***home recording enthusiast*** to get a good sound with just overheads with a bit of kick and snare added in...<<

OK? I am not saying everyone should record this way, or that your way won't work (I have done it "your" way many times myself). But this web site is called HOME RECORDING. It is about how people recording at home on a limited budget (and yes, sometimes with limited tracks, limited microphones, etc.) can get a good sound. Of COURSE there are a lot of commercial situations where you will need to go for lots of different techniques. All I was trying to say is that you don't necessarily HAVE to have a boatload of great mics and pre's and outboard gear to get a really good drum sound, that it has been done many times without all that, so why not spend some time trying it? It costs you nothing but time - you can always spend more money later if you really need to. And frankly your attitude toward this simple statement baffles me.

I didn't need to sit in on a Zeppelin or Beatles or Who session - the engineers and producers of those bands have given countless intereviews on the subject and there are plenty of pictures too you can see how it was done if you care to look it up. I did. I certainly trust my ears more than anything, but I love to find out how someone got a sound that I love and try to experiment with it. Personally I think Bonham's drum sound was incredible and an engineer was never allowed to close mic him at all! So yes, I am happy with the sounds I get and I agree that's what is important.

--Lee
 
flier said:
But this web site is called HOME RECORDING. It is about how people recording at home on a limited budget (and yes, sometimes with limited tracks, limited microphones, etc.) can get a good sound. Of COURSE there are a lot of commercial situations where you will need to go for lots of different techniques. All I was trying to say is that you don't necessarily HAVE to have a boatload of great mics and pre's and outboard gear to get a really good drum sound, that it has been done many times without all that, so why not spend some time trying it? It costs you nothing but time - you can always spend more money later if you really need to. And frankly your attitude toward this simple statement baffles me.
Click to expand...
Well Lee,

This being a home recoding site I just thought that telling a home recordist to use the majority of his sound from the overheads and a bit from the snare and kick was not solid advice.Nor puting a mic in front and in back of the drummer . Nor panning a bit here and a bit more there to get a good image.
And so my advice was not to do so with no intention in being rude. It's nothing personal and that frankly is in simple terms my attitude.

I'll still be glad to hear a mp3 of your configuration.

[Edited by Shailat on 09-23-2000 at 11:36]
 
Shailat, I didn't take your remarks personally at all, I just think it's silly to knock something you haven't really tried, like Gear Junky said. I think people who are recording at home on a limited budget should try this method for awhile and if they can get good results, they may be able to avoid spending a lot of money on mics and outboard gear. Then again, they may not be happy with the sound and end up having to spend the money after all. Then again, they may spend the money and STILL not get the result they want, because the problem may be the drum kit, or the heads, or the room, or whatever. So it pays to experiment and I feel your attitude is kinda putting people off experimenting.

As for the MP3, I will probably be able to get that posted today or tomorrow; currently it is kinda a pain for me to make MP3's as I have an all analog setup, but a friend is loaning me his DAT. So that will be the best testimonial - for people to hear for themselves.

--Lee
 
flier said:
I just think it's silly to knock something you haven't really tried, like Gear Junky said. I think people who are recording at home on a limited budget should try this method for awhile and if they can get good results, they may be able to avoid spending a lot of money on mics and outboard gear. Then again, they may not be happy with the sound and end up having to spend the money after all. Then again, they may spend the money and STILL not get the result they want, because the problem may be the drum kit, or the heads, or the room, or whatever. So it pays to experiment and I feel your attitude is kinda putting people off experimenting.

--Lee
Click to expand...

Well Flier,
Having been recording for quite a while, I can tell you that I have tried almost every possible mic posittion from using 1 condenser to 12.

Again ... it's not the equipment the money or mics. You CAN achive results using even 1 mic or 2-3. You can get BETTER results with correct panning and mic placment and mic priorty.

If you would search through some of my posts on drumming you would see that I put first priorty on drum kit, tunning, Sticks. room etc....only then micing.
I don't expect a home recordist to go out and buy what he cant afford but would like him to know to use his gear in the best possible way and THEN if he can't get results to experiment.
 
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