Order of Importance (in a signal chain)

  • Thread starter Thread starter A1A2
  • Start date Start date
A1A2

A1A2

New member
I was reading some thread where some people were saying that a good clock is a must before even considering preamps and whatnot. Now, that's something I have never thought of. So, let's list the signal chain in the order of importance here.

Like what should be the first good piece of gear to consider?
Say, for example, you already have Mackie pres, SP mics, Delta cards, and fairly decent monitors.


Al
 
Well, as always: the source is the most important.

- good instruments played by decent musicians (or voice)
- a fitting mic
- a preamp that has a noisefloor low enough to do the mic justice (and enough headroom and low distortion)

If those are up to par, then clock may make a difference, but only if the designer of the convertor was below par. Now this does not mean that a good clock is a luxury. If you have several digital gear connected together it makes life easier. But it certainly does not mean that your mc8000 suddenly rivals a good akg or neumann.

With playback, it is the same, good monitors, well set up driven by an adequate amp. That will make more difference than a clock.
 
Way too often, people forget the importance of the instrument itself -- or the amp it may/may not be plugged in to. Put your money in to a better kit or a better guitar, and it will do a lot more for you, 9 times out of 10, than a better drum mic or processor, etc.

All other things being equal, everyone will have a much different theory on this, so it's going to depend a lot on who you ask. It also depends a lot on your personal priorities and tastes, and what kind of music you do.

With that in mind, I've put together a few theories here for you, because I'm bored and feel like ranting. Which one of these is right for you depends on your unique situation. And most of all, what your long-term goals are versus your short-term :

1. Weakest Link Theory:

Ask yourself if it is important to you to get an immediate improvement via instant gratification, or if it is your goal to slowly make baby steps toward an improved gear list.

If your answer is "instant gratification," then the Weakest Link theory is what you should follow. The best place to start should be at your weakest link. Determining what your weakest link is might be a little tricky, but after playing around with something for a while and asking enough questions, you should be able to figure it out. If you can't, for the life of you, figure out, then chances are you need to brush up on your skills before you buy anything. By the time your skills reach a certain level, you'll know what's holding you back.

The idea behind the weakest link theory, of course, is addition through subtraction, and provided it's a big enough upgrade, you should hear immediate results.

II. Reverse Signal-chain theory:

The reverse signal-chain theory is based on the idea that "I am mostly happy all of the gear I have. There are no glaring weaknesses that I can think of. I just want to start upgrading, but I'm not sure where to start."

If this sounds like you, then this is your game plan. The idea behind reverse signal chain is to start with the source and work your way along the path (journey) the signal takes, following each successive step untill it ultimately makes it's way to tape or disk.

Start with the performer, then what the performer is playing, then the room he/she is playing it in, followed by the microphone capturing it . . . working your way down to what the mic is plugged in to eventually making your way down to the medium it's recorded to, which would include A/D conversion, clocking, etc.

Amendment I: Weakest Link Amendment

Again, the weakest link clause has to apply as an exception to the reverse-signal chain rule. For instance: start with the player and the instrument unless you have a much weaker link on down the chain. If that's the case, take care of that, then go back to the source and work your way back.

The logic being that it doesn't matter how good your A/D is if the mic sucks . . . and similarly it doesn't matter how good the mic is if the weakest link in your chain is a Soundblaster card recording at 8 bit :D , or if there's an Alesis compressor molesting your signal on the way to the soundblaster, etc. etc.

Amendment II: Bargain-hunter's Clause

The idea behind the bargain-hunter's clause is very simple. Select your plan, be it the weakest-link plan or the reverse-signal chain plan. Stick firmly to your plan except in cases where something comes along at an unusually good price. Examples of this would be if you're saving up for a new mic pre, when suddently you see an ebay auction about to close for a used Apogee Rosetta converter for like $200.

In that most unusual of circumstances, you'll want to check the seller's feedback rating, ask him a few questions, and if you feel good about the opportunity, then move on up the chain for the time-being and get that convertor. Just make sure to move back down to the mic pre the next chance you get.
 
Last edited:
Likewise, I have Cakewalk, the mic and guitar I need, and a decent enough musical ablitiy. The question is, while I can produce semi-OK sound using just this, what would be the best thing to improve it. A preamp? Digital Analogue converter? A monkey in green shorts?

Thanks
 
chessrock said:
Way too often, people forget the importance of the instrument itself -- or the amp it may/may not be plugged in to. Put your money in to a better kit or a better guitar, and it will do a lot more for you, 9 times out of 10, than a better drum mic or processor, etc.

All other things being equal, everyone will have a much different theory on this, so it's going to depend a lot on who you ask. It also depends a lot on your personal priorities and tastes, and what kind of music you do.

With that in mind, I've put together a few theories here for you, because I'm bored and feel like ranting. Which one of these is right for you depends on your unique situation. And most of all, what your long-term goals are versus your short-term :

1. Weakest Link Theory:

As yourself if it is important to you to get an immediate improvement via instant gratification, or if it is your goal to slowly make baby steps toward an improved gear list.

If your answer is "instant gratification," then the Weakest Link theory is what you should follow. The best place to start should be at your weakest link. Determining what your weakest link is might be a little tricky, but after playing around with something for a while and asking enough questions, you should be able to figure it out. The idea behind the weakest link theory, of course, is addition through subtraction, and provided it's a big enough upgrade, you should hear immediate results.

II. Reverse Signal-chain theory:

The reverse signal-chain theory is based on the idea that "I am mostly happy all of the gear I have. There are no glaring weaknesses that I can think of. I just want to start upgrading, but I'm not sure where to start."

If this sounds like you, then this is your game plan. The idea behind reverse signal chain is to start with the source and work your way along the path (journey) the signal takes, following each successive step untill it ultimately makes it's way to tape or disk.

Start with the performer, then what the performer is playing, then the room he/she is playing it in, followed by the microphone capturing it . . . working your way down to what the mic is plugged in to eventually making your way down to the medium it's recorded to, which would include A/D conversion, clocking, etc.

Amendment I: Weakest Link Amendment

Again, the weakest link clause has to apply as an exception to the reverse-signal chain rule. For instance: start with the player and the instrument unless you have a much weaker link on down the chain. If that's the case, take care of that, then go back to the source and work your way back.

The logic being that it doesn't matter how good your A/D is if the mic sucks . . . and similarly it doesn't matter how good the mic is if the weakest link in your chain is a Soundblaster card recording at 8 bit :D , or if there's an Alesis compressor molesting your signal on the way to the soundblaster, etc. etc.

Amendment II: Bargain-hunter's Clause

The idea behind the bargain-hunter's clause is very simple. Select your plan, be it the weakest-link plan or the reverse-signal chain plan. Stick firmly to your plan except in cases where something comes along at an unusually good price. Examples of this would be if you're saving up for a new mic pre, when suddently you see an ebay auction about to close for a used Apogee Rosetta converter for like $200.

In that most unusual of circumstances, you'll want to check the seller's feedback rating, ask him a few questions, and if you feel good about the opportunity, then move on up the chain for the time-being and get that convertor. Just make sure to move back down to the mic pre the next chance you get.

I agree with that school of thought. I have heard some bad performance with nice gear before, and it really made me think, "umm..maybe that avalon, Apogee and whatnot didn't need to be used to produce the same crap"

Performance aside, if you had a SP mic, micing a decent acoustic guitar with new strings, going into Mackie/Meek pre and then into some Delta card, what weak link do you see here? or are they "equally weak"?

I guess my biggest concern is, shoud I stop talking and just work on my tracking/mixing skill? or am I wasting time trying to get better cuz my gear will only get me so far?

Al
 
CanopuS said:
Likewise, I have Cakewalk, the mic and guitar I need, and a decent enough musical ablitiy. The question is, while I can produce semi-OK sound using just this, what would be the best thing to improve it. A preamp? Digital Analogue converter? A monkey in green shorts?

Thanks

what amp, mic, preamp, and soundcard are you using?

BTW, I really like that monkey idea:D :D

Al
 
Amp: None
Mic: ECM-99 Condenser vocal microphone
Preamp: None :( Except the one of the semi-acoustic
Soundcard: A real crap one :) AC97 Avance audio.

Monkey: His name is jim :D
 
A1A2 said:
Performance aside, if you had a SP mic, micing a decent acoustic guitar with new strings, going into Mackie/Meek pre and then into some Delta card, what weak link do you see here? or are they "equally weak"?

I guess my biggest concern is, shoud I stop talking and just work on my tracking/mixing skill? or am I wasting time trying to get better cuz my gear will only get me so far?

Al

You've got a solid prosumer signal chain there. They are all equally strong/weak depending on your standards. Anyone of those components could be replaced with something obviously better but it's a matter of diminishing returns. If you can't make some very good recordings with that gear then the problem is you.

BUT you may find it challenging to get your sound to the next level with that setup assuming your technique and sources are stellar. If you start feeling like your gear is holding you back from the sound you are trying to acheive then it's time to look for better/different stuff.
 
CanopuS said:
what would be the best thing to improve it. A preamp? Digital Analogue converter? A monkey in green shorts?

If you don't know what your weakest links are and what can use improvement, then do your homework and research and get your knowlege up to speed before you just start throwing money out there randomly. Before you can improve, you first need the knowlege to know what needs improvement.
 
How about this chain...... AKG C4000B to Monster 30ft $50+ Mic cable to RNP to monster $25 TRS to RNC from RNC via Monster TRS to analog 1 on my RME Multiface at 48000 24Bit...............

Im thinking forst will be the mic and second a additonal pre third being a Lucid word clock....

Recommendations....
 
A1A2 said:
I guess my biggest concern is, shoud I stop talking and just work on my tracking/mixing skill? or am I wasting time trying to get better cuz my gear will only get me so far?

I agree with everything Tex said. With the right skills/knowlege, what you have can certainly get you there. I've heard some real great stuff done with much, much less.

You pretty much answered your own question, though. If you don't know what your weakest link is, then you probably need to get busy and polish your skillset. By the time that's up to speed, you'll know what needs addressing. If, however, your knowlege already is up to speed, and you just want to start improving but you're not sure where to start, then the Reverse-signal-chain is a great place to begin.
 
Well I think the whole thing is messed up. Nah I think my soundcard sucks, and I need something between the sound and the computer, like a preamp, because frankly otherwise it will sound poor
 
Everything is equally important in the signal chain. If there's something that could be sacrificed without having a negative effect, then why are you using it?

The only thing I can think of that isn't of "major" importance are cables...as IMO they only have a seriously negative impact if they're of very low quality (at which point they really do make a big difference!).

I've upgraded mics, preamps, and soundcards...and during the process I was always thinking, "what's most important"....and you know what? Nothing was most important. Better mics didn't help into my soundblaster. Better preamps didn't help my crappy mics. A better soundcard didn't make any of my crappy gear sound better.

I'm not a saver so buying one item at a time will always be how I do it....but I know that upgrading single items doesn't lead to drastic results if there are other weak links in the chain.

All that said, the most important thing to put money into FIRST is your recording device and monitoring system. If I could do it all over again I would've had a monitoring system and good soundcard before anything else. It's impossible to make good judgements about the rest of your gear if you're not really hearing what you're recording, or you're not really recording what you're hearing!

Slackmaster 2000
 
P.S. I don't believe that "importance" = "money". Satisfactory results can certainly be had with budget gear...you just can't skip things. Plugging a mic into a soundcard is skipping something. Using a $7 plastic microphone is skipping something. Using an ESS soundcard is skipping something. Monitoring on computer speakers is skipping something. Using flimsy cheapo cables that pick up all kinds of noise and mutilate sound is skipping something.

I'm a believer in minimums. I think that the "minimum acceptable" preamp for homerecording is going to run about $50-100 per channel. I think that the minimum acceptable microphone is going to cost at least $70 most of the time. I think that the cheapest soundcard worth a damn is going to be around $150. I think that the cheapest cable is going to be a brand like canare with neutrik or switchcraft connectors.

Most of us here are homerec'ers, and we shouldn't be concerned with achieving "pro" results. We should be more concerned with achieving results that are LISTENABLE...results that don't negatively impact the music itself. This means that we don't have to fork over the big bucks, but it doesn't mean that we don't have to spend any bucks. It seems that most people (myself included) just starting think that they can get away with completely cutting out corners here and there, and if they just squeeze their brains and try really really hard they can make it work....that's just not true, at some point you have to spend money.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Gotta say, you guys are right.

At one point, I was going a little gearholic (mentally) and at some point, I was really satisfied with what I've got. But, like Chess said, limited knowledge makes me uncertain about my setup. "Could this gear totally change my sound from ok to great?", I sometimes ask myself....

So, yeah, knowledge is probably the weakest link in my chain right now:D


So, a C1+at4041>Mackie+Meek>Delta>Tannoys are equally strong/weak, correct? If that's confirmed, I will feel secured:)


thanks, guys

Al
 
Back
Top