newbie to mixing need help

[bethanyb321]

Hello ive been recording for a while now in cubase5 but am now ready for the mix, which i have no experience so i wanted to turn to u gurus for some direction. I will not be doing mixing in cubase since i have a mixing console on my soundcard so im now in the process of preparing the songs to be mixed in the other mixer. almost all my songs i made with no regard to levels and stuff put a bunch of compressors and turned down master faders. Throughout all my songs theres clipping, and just horrible mixes in general. So im starting now on 1 song and started by removing all compressors and set all levels in mixer including master fader at 0db. Is this right should all levels in cubase mixer be at 0db including master? and make changes just to volumes of vsts and audio tracks? Should i just go one by one with audio wavs/vst instrument and lowering the volumes till its under the clipping, do u guys agree? and how much should they be under clipping? right under clipping/half way to clipping...i have no idea how loud things should be, please ne advice much appriciated, thnks

 

[bethanyb321]

please anyone? id really like to get started on my mixing journey, thnks

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I think one of the reasons you haven't gotten replies yet is because your OP is a bit confusing.

First, please explain better the whole "recorded in Cubase but mixing on the soundcard console" thing. Which "soundcard" and software are you talking about and why are you using that instead of Cubase?

Second, if you got clipping in your recordings, you're stuck with it unless you re-record. Pulling the signals down in mixing will not remove clipping that is already there.

As far as setting the mixing levels, that's hard to figure if they are already recorded too hot. You want to record them so that they are peaking maybe 6-9 dB below 0dBFS *at most*. Then when you mix them, start with all faders set to 0 - on the fader, not on the meters - and set the relative levels to how you want them to sound relative to each other, preferably by pulling down those faders you want quieter more than you push up those you want louder. Keep the levels on the master stereo meters below 0dbFS.

How's that for a start?

G.

 

[5stringer]

Great advice Southside! This may explain why I am having trouble getting all of my tracks to
mesh during mixing. I was operating under the old addage that you should "push" the signal during the recording process to the point of clipping - then back off a bit to not "redline". I've tried to record the signal as hot as I could get it at both the interface and input gain controls (I also use Cubase 5) and found that when mixing, all the faders had to be turned way, way down (like 1/4 from bottom) in order to not have any track clipping. Is there a reason this is not the case as it was with analog tape machines?

 

[themdla]

yes....

the digital equivlent of "pushing into the red" on analog is between -15 to -18dbfs on your computer. this is called line level...

so when you are setting levels to record a track try to setting your levels so your track is on average around -18dbfs plus or minus a bit more depending on if you like the sound of the gain from your mic-pre. some tracks and pres will sound better or worse with more or less gain, but it should be roughly around -18 dbfs RMS.

and as glen said it shouldn't ever come close to reaching 0dbfs (on the meters) maybe -6 to -9 if it's a hot signal. i try to stay around -10 to -12dbfs on the "peaks".

with all your tracks playing on the mix bus or master fader as many call it you shouldn't be over -6dbfs in peak levels.

you may find at these recording levels that the volume is rather quiet, so turn up your monitoring volume even if it means setting it between 50% -75%... don't turn up your master fader, leave that at 0/unity.

when you "master" is when you will "fix" the volume to "match" commercial releases. until then, while your tracking and mixing, your voulme levels will be considerably lower sounding than a commerically finished product at the same monitoring level... to compensate turn up your monitors a bit until mastering.

 

[5stringer]

Thanks for your help!

 

[Bristol Posse]

Is there a reason this is not the case as it was with analog tape machines?

This is the case with tape machines and so people calibrated effectively to avoid recording to hot and ruining their sound.
By recording at as close to 0dBFS (0 on your Cubase meters) you are actually running your analog recording chain at something between +18 to +22 dBu (nominal or Line level is +4dBu on most studio gear). This would have sounded pretty awful if you recorded to tape at such a ridiculously hot level unless you specifically wanted massive amounts of tape compression, saturation and soft clipping as a delibarate effect

Once you understand where line level is on your gear and accept that the analog input chain was not really designed to run and sound goood at levels that are almost (or perhaps even are) clipping analog to digital converters and that peak levels have nothing to do with loudness and that at the mixing stage a comercial level of loudness is not the goal, you will have a much easier time making your mixes sound better

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Great advice Southside! This may explain why I am having trouble getting all of my tracks to
mesh during mixing. I was operating under the old addage that you should "push" the signal during the recording process to the point of clipping - then back off a bit to not "redline". I've tried to record the signal as hot as I could get it at both the interface and input gain controls (I also use Cubase 5) and found that when mixing, all the faders had to be turned way, way down (like 1/4 from bottom) in order to not have any track clipping. Is there a reason this is not the case as it was with analog tape machines?

Themdla and Bristol have already given excellent and correct answers to this, let me just take it from a little different of a beginning perspective....

The old addage of "push things to 0" IME really harkens back to the days of pure analog, when one wanted to run things around 0VU (give or take a few dBs) on an analog VU meter. The problem is 0VU on an analog meter and 0dBFS on a digital recording are NOT the same thing. They are both reading dBs, but using a different scale. It's a little bit like measuring temperature; we have degrees Fahrenheit and degrees Celsius or Centigrade. They both are telling us the temperature in degrees, but 0°F and 0°C are actually two different temperatures. The analogy is not precise, but it should give you the idea, anyway, that a reading of 0 on the analog scale is different than a reading of 0 on a digital scale, and that riding things somewhere close to 0 on the analog side, which is usually good (again plus or minus a couple of dBs amongst friends, depending on a few details we don't need to go into here), actually means an average level of somewhere in the -20 to -15dBFS range on the digital side. And an average level there can typically mean a peak level somewhere a few dB below 0dBFS digital.

The main thing I think for newbs to this stuff to remember is that when recording digitally, it's easy to record too hot, but it's really hard to record too quiet, so it's usually better to err on the quiet side to be safe.

G.

 

[bethanyb321]

I think one of the reasons you haven't gotten replies yet is because your OP is a bit confusing.

First, please explain better the whole "recorded in Cubase but mixing on the soundcard console" thing. Which "soundcard" and software are you talking about and why are you using that instead of Cubase?

Second, if you got clipping in your recordings, you're stuck with it unless you re-record. Pulling the signals down in mixing will not remove clipping that is already there.

As far as setting the mixing levels, that's hard to figure if they are already recorded too hot. You want to record them so that they are peaking maybe 6-9 dB below 0dBFS *at most*. Then when you mix them, start with all faders set to 0 - on the fader, not on the meters - and set the relative levels to how you want them to sound relative to each other, preferably by pulling down those faders you want quieter more than you push up those you want louder. Keep the levels on the master stereo meters below 0dbFS.

How's that for a start?

first off thanks for all the replys
about the soundcard thing, my sound card(creamware/soniccore) is a digital mixing enviorment kind of thing that works on dsps and has a mixer and a bunch of effects so when done with preparing the project gonna route all tracks thorough asio to this mixer and do mixing there. Most my audio tracks arnet recorded by me and i mostly use vsts, since i make electronic music. for the audio that i will record thanks for the advice ( 6-9 dB below 0dBFS *at most* ) now i know when recording how much db. I guess what im really trying to figure out is before going about balancing everything out, to know whats a good range of volumes to set everything and pretty sure Thembdla answered that (try to stay around -10 to -12dbfs on the "peaks".
with all your tracks playing on the mix bus or master fader as many call it you shouldn't be over -6dbfs in peak levels.)

So just to clarify, before the process of balancing things out, now that im going one by one with all my tracks/vsts, set levels(on vsts and wav files, not mixer faders) so that peaks around -10 to -12 db ? and i shouldnt keep all faders on mixer at 0db since im gonna be mixing on another mixer?
thnks

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

So just to clarify, before the process of balancing things out, now that im going one by one with all my tracks/vsts, set levels(on vsts and wav files, not mixer faders) so that peaks around -10 to -12 db ? and i shouldnt keep all faders on mixer at 0db since im gonna be mixing on another mixer?
thnks

Those are recommended levels for recording. When it comes to actual mixing, there are no rules as far as "balanced levels". Your ears need to tell you whether this synth should be louder than that percussion, etc. Just keep them all from clipping, and keep the *sum* of them low enough so that you're not clipping on the master mixdown bus.

Other than that, you're the boss, mix them to how you like them to sound.

G.

 

[bethanyb321]

thanks now i get started

 

[5stringer]

So.... my input fader and signal level should be nowhere near 0 - I get that, how do you balance the input level at the interface and the input level fader in Cubase? Currently, I look for the clip light to come on the interface (Profire 2626) and then back off til very loud hits or signals do not produce a clip. I guess my next step would be to adjust the input fader til the meter peaks no higher than -6 dB. Does this sound like I am on the right track?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Once again, no hard-and-fast rules here, but personally it just makes the most sense to me when recording to leave my digital input faders at unity gain (0 on the fader itself) and just set the level properly on the interface. This helps ensure that you're running somewhere near 0VU on the analog side of the interface, neither too close to the analog noise floor on the bottom nor too close to either analog overdrive or digital clipping on the top.

G.

 

[themdla]

So.... my input fader and signal level should be nowhere near 0 - I get that, how do you balance the input level at the interface and the input level fader in Cubase? Currently, I look for the clip light to come on the interface (Profire 2626) and then back off til very loud hits or signals do not produce a clip. I guess my next step would be to adjust the input fader til the meter peaks no higher than -6 dB. Does this sound like I am on the right track?

nope! you want to adjust the level of the input gain on your 2626 until it reads -18db average in your DAW on the channel it's routed to.

don't touch your software faders unless you need to turn down a track "mix-wise". your software faders don't have any affect on your input gain staging.

get to -18db average before you hit the software. since you don't have "meters" on your profire you'll have to use the "meters" for the track in your DAW

 

[themdla]

first off thanks for all the replys
about the soundcard thing, my sound card(creamware/soniccore) is a digital mixing enviorment kind of thing that works on dsps and has a mixer and a bunch of effects so when done with preparing the project gonna route all tracks thorough asio to this mixer and do mixing there.

that's fine all the same "rules" still apply.... average of -18db and a maximum/peaks -12 to -9db

Most my audio tracks arnet recorded by me and i mostly use vsts, since i make electronic music. for the audio that i will record thanks for the advice ( 6-9 dB below 0dBFS *at most* ) now i know when recording how much db. I guess what im really trying to figure out is before going about balancing everything out, to know whats a good range of volumes to set everything and pretty sure Thembdla answered that (try to stay around -10 to -12dbfs on the "peaks".
with all your tracks playing on the mix bus or master fader as many call it you shouldn't be over -6dbfs in peak levels.)

yup for the most part, as glen said there are no hard/fast rules about your mix levels... but one indentifier that i tend to use is vocals.

1) 0 all your faders at the beginning of a mix
2) turn up the vocals where they meet the above rules
3) start adding the other insturments back into the mix, watch your levels, listen to the balance, tweak
4) with everything in the mix your levels will be, on average, higher than the target -18db input levels (-15 to -12 ish) with the peaks somewhere in the -12 to -6 db range.

So just to clarify, before the process of balancing things out, now that im going one by one with all my tracks/vsts, set levels(on vsts and wav files, not mixer faders) so that peaks around -10 to -12 db ? and i shouldnt keep all faders on mixer at 0db since im gonna be mixing on another mixer?
thnks

yes you want to ensure that the other mixer gets your properly set input levels so don't "apply" any "mixing" type adjustment prior to that. ie level adjustments, pan, eq, aux sends, effects, etc...