Newbie, Suggestions Appreciated, Many ?s Inside

[bluesboy2003]

Hello. I’m new to the HR.com BBS but wanted to try posting now, because I’m in a bit of a confused mess at this point

I am just looking to do some one-man band type amateur, self-amusing projects. The objective here is fun, not professionalism, but I am someone who really appreciates quality, and so I am willing to pay for a few good products that will last me long enough to see me into the next tax-bracket, when I can afford the next level of dedication and quality. I’m not seeking to overthrow George Martin as the master producer, I’d just like to be able to end up with a few tunes that I could hand to a friend and have him or her listen and say, “That sounded good.”

I currently own a PC has a 1GHz Athlon and 512MB of PC133 RAM under the hood, with two IDE drives, one 40 GB and the other 30 GB, so I’m hoping this would be okay (if not we can discuss building a new one, but I’d like to get by with what I can for now). Unfortunately, I have an embarrassingly sad soundcard as far as recording goes: a lowly Creative Soundblaster PCI128. I've managed to get two tunes out of it, but it's time for something more respectable. The only thing is I don't know exactly what that is.

I create my backing tracks on my Roland XP-60 and then record them on to the PC, and then lay guitar down over them. The guitar is wired to my Tech 21 PSA-1 that I run into my soundcard. Ideally what I'd like is an interface that would allow me to have both my synth-workstation and my guitar pre-amp plugged in, but at the bare minimum, I would need at least two 1/4" inputs for recording in stereo. I don’t really need to record both at the same time; one instrument at a time is fine for me.

I will be doing my recording in my apartment, which means noise is a no-no, and hence, I plan on recording direct. The XP-60 features only ¼” outputs, but the PSA-1 has both ¼” outs and XLR outs. An option for being able to attach mics might be nice for the future, but again, at this point, it’s not really useable. I think I can do without a physical mixing interface; point and click with the mouse will do just fine. I really haven’t a clue what differences lie between the PCI card interfaces and the USB interfaces other than where they are attached to the PC. I do not have a Firewire card on my PC so I will not be able to use those type interfaces.

Since I am going to be recording in an apartment, I would like to be able to listen to the recordings and maybe do preliminary mix-down using studio-quality, closed headphones. Could you recommend a pair? Are there any good soundcards with interfaces that meet the necessary ohm-ratings of good headphones, or will I need a separate headphone amp, and if I will need a separate amp, do you have any suggestions?

I am unsure at this point if I should invest in monitors. I am aware that it is a bad idea to mix using headphones, but again, these aren’t intended to be professional-level recordings. If you guys say they are critical, though, I’m willing to listen to suggestions for monitors that are economical, yet don’t cut corners that shouldn’t be cut. I would assume I need powered monitors, but I’m unsure.

I also use Quartz Audiomaster as my recording software. It’s been fine for me to use, but I'm not sure how compatible it will be with a new (real) recording interface. If new software is needed, what should I be looking to get, and how much would I be likely to need to spend? I have seen a few mentions of n-Track here and there. Is that fairly intuitive and useful? I can’t see that something like Cakewalk Sonar would be worthwhile to me; it seems I wouldn’t be capable of utilizing sophisticated features.

I would really like to spend as well below $1,000 in total as possible, if possible. Again, if the computer isn’t up to par, I’d be open to discussing upgrading, but the longer I can hold out with what I’ve got, the greater the return on when I finally do buy a new box.

Thank you so much for your help and your time. I have really been trying to do my homework on this, but the more I read, the more I realize I don’t know, and the more I wonder how much time and money I could lose trying to figure it all out by guesswork. I really appreciate this forum being here and the members being so active. From what I’ve read through on here, you guys have an amazing wealth of useful information.

Thanks again,
Chris

 

[Stealthtech]

The PC will do ok if thats the route you wanna go.
I would look at the m-audio omni or others with built-in preamps, phone jack, monitor out, DSP, etc...
Monitors will be a good investment...perhaps again...the m-audio SB5's....$200 or less.
5" woofers so not alarming bass but very good for mid-level monitoring.
Software.....Sonar and N-track would be a great enexpensive start.

 

[bluesboy2003]

Thanks very much. The M-Audio Omni Studio is one of the packages I've been thinking about. There are some mentions of driver problems with the OMNI on the following page.

http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/productreview--MDOOMNISTU

Do these problems still exist?

I've also been thinking about the E-MU 1820M, but I don't know much about it and I have not been able to find any reviews on it. Is this product new? Does anyone here own one? I don't know if I'd be able to record in stereo (2 tracks?) at 24/192 with my PC; I probably wouldn't, would I? Could I record at 24/96, though? I don't know that this interface has a monitor-out, so I don't know how I'd hook up studio monitors to it.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Ibrow]

BB, you seem to be in EXACTLY the same position I was just a while ago. I do everything by myself, and for myself. Sony Entertainment won't be signing me anytime soon. But, I have done my research, and money IS and WAS an object for me. Given the above criteria, here's my suggestions.

Get yourself an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 sound card. It's PCI. It's $150. Very compatible. Your computer should work beautifully for the time being. Add this card, and you are set for analog, SPDIF, and MIDI. Plus 24/96 recording. If you are planning on recording 2 analog sources at a time, look into the next step up.

Get yourself a mixer. Most folks are suggesting the Yamaha's with 12-16 channels. Personally, I got the Behringer Eurorack 1604. 4 mic pre's. Phantom power. 6 stereo tracks. It works just fine for my needs.

If you need to do ANY micing of anything, like acoustic guitar or vocals you record during the day, a Shure SM57 fits the bill pretty well. If you are going condenser, I'm sure you can find a ton of suggestions.

For headphones, I use, and had suggested, the Grado SR-60's. ~$65. They unfortunately are open cupped, but they sound WONDERFUL! But they do bleed if you are tracking vocals or something next to the mic. For that I have a cheap pair of Koss closed headphones. They don't sound half bad, for tracking, and don't bleed.

I use Sonar 3. You should too. LOL! It is SO HARD to understand how to get it working, but once you do, it's just so powerful. I think, for less cash, you can get Magix Studio or something else for well less than $100 on ebay. Go to Magix's site and check out their sequencer/editor software. It's a really cheap way to get a sequencer and an editor. But, you can get Sonar 3 studio on Ebay for $240 new and sealed. You could add an editor, Sound Forge XP off of ebay for a whole $30.

Lastly, monitors. I don't have any yet. I am still using my Creative Audio 5.1 speakers. I, of course, am only using 2 speakers and the sub to mix, and it sounds like shit.

I mostly mix on my headphones, then listen to it LOUD on those for a little while to "hear" it. I am getting monitors soon. Either the Yorkville ysm1p's or, preferrably, the m-audio BX8's. Every post that I have read about settling for the BX5's has said to save your cash for either the Yorkies or the BX8's. So that's what I'm doing.

So, you have

AP 2496 SC $150
Mixer ~~~~$200 or less
Headphones$65

These are the essentials to get you started and getting your "sound" into the box. ~~$415. The next part of your supposed $1000 you will have to decide between Monitors or High-end software. Personally, I would go with the monitors and get the Magix software. Or, you could DEMO Sonar and see how much better it is.

Home recording is a money pit, there is no doubt about it. BUT it is just so much GD fun! Search the newbie section for the mixer that is currently being recommended.

Hope that helps.

 

[bluesboy2003]

Get yourself an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 sound card. It's PCI. It's $150. Very compatible. Your computer should work beautifully for the time being. Add this card, and you are set for analog, SPDIF, and MIDI. Plus 24/96 recording. If you are planning on recording 2 analog sources at a time, look into the next step up.[/b]

What would be the "next step up"?

Get yourself a mixer. Most folks are suggesting the Yamaha's with 12-16 channels. Personally, I got the Behringer Eurorack 1604. 4 mic pre's. Phantom power. 6 stereo tracks. It works just fine for my needs.

What are the advantages to purchasing a (physical) mixer as opposed to using a higher-end soundcard with an interface that accepts more than two inputs, and then using a "virtual mixer" to control the signals? From my perspective, it seems advantageous to have fewer parts of better quality rather than more parts of lesser quality. It also seems a good idea to introduce as few pieces of equipment into the signal chain as possible. Skimping on a physical mixer also seems like a good way to conserve physical space (which is a limiting factor around my PC). Still there is a lot I don't know, so I'd like to know why you went with a real mixer.

If you need to do ANY micing of anything, like acoustic guitar or vocals you record during the day, a Shure SM57 fits the bill pretty well. If you are going condenser, I'm sure you can find a ton of suggestions.

Thanks. Micing won't be necessary at the moment but I will hold the SM57 in mind when it comes time. I've heard it is the workhorse of recording.

For headphones, I use, and had suggested, the Grado SR-60's. ~$65. They unfortunately are open cupped, but they sound WONDERFUL! But they do bleed if you are tracking vocals or something next to the mic. For that I have a cheap pair of Koss closed headphones. They don't sound half bad, for tracking, and don't bleed.

Thanks for the suggestion. I would probably not mind paying more for a good set of headphones. Transparency is the largest factor. The Sony MDR7506s are quite popular but I have read several reports that they may have a bit of a bass boost, making them a lot less appealing to me. I think I'd be looking for higher end AKGs or Sennheisers, though I'm not sure which ones. Probably something in the $150+ range, though.

I use Sonar 3. You should too. LOL! It is SO HARD to understand how to get it working, but once you do, it's just so powerful. I think, for less cash, you can get Magix Studio or something else for well less than $100 on ebay. Go to Magix's site and check out their sequencer/editor software. It's a really cheap way to get a sequencer and an editor. But, you can get Sonar 3 studio on Ebay for $240 new and sealed. You could add an editor, Sound Forge XP off of ebay for a whole $30.

Thanks very much for that info. I hadn't even thought to look for that software on eBay. The prices are much more reasonable than on Cakewalk's website. Still, I don't know if I could really use all that power, and I don't know if my poor computer could handle that software. I think the minimum is something like 800 MHz/512MB RAM.

These are the essentials to get you started and getting your "sound" into the box. ~~$415. The next part of your supposed $1000 you will have to decide between Monitors or High-end software. Personally, I would go with the monitors and get the Magix software. Or, you could DEMO Sonar and see how much better it is.

Well, I certainly appreciate those suggestions. I guess perhaps I should demo Sonar first, once I've actually got my musical equipment.

Home recording is a money pit, there is no doubt about it. BUT it is just so much GD fun!

No, drugs and alcohol are money pits. Buying musical equipment gives you the ability to do something constructive and creative. I call that an "investment."

Thanks very much for your time and all the detail in your answers. They're quite helpful.

Also, did I post this message in the wrong spot? Perhaps I'd see more suggestions if I had posted it in the Newbie section? Or did I choose the right spot and just not ask very many interesting questions?

Thanks again.

 

[bluesboy2003]

Hmm, pretty please, with sugar on top?

I promise I'm still doing my homework. I've been reading loads of back threads and webpages but I could really still use all the advice that only comes with experience.

Remember, you were a newbie once, too.

 

[Ibrow]

Okay,

Yeah, the newbie section will get you a lot of replies. You seem to have done your homework though, and have an idea of what you want to do, so you'll be fine. You "could" make a similar post in the newbie section, just give it a different title, and DO NOT cut and paste. Rephrase your questions, just so they are a bit differently worded. SOME folks are a bit touchy about posting the same thing in different forums. Even for newbies. But, I'd suggest you take what you already know, throw a post up in the newb section and see if any NEW ideas come to light. That said, here we go.

"Next step up" would be whatever you think you WILL need in the future. Your soundcard will easily move with you from DAW to DAW as you upgrade your computer. So knowing what you forsee yourself doing in the future with your DAW can affect your purchase today. First off, are you going to be bringing in full bands and recording demos? Probably not. That rules out really high end. Are you planning on micing any drumkits soon or in the forseeable future? Probably not. More realistically, are you ever planning on singing and playing guitar and recording both on different tracks at the same time? If so, you may need the "next step up". Or, if you are going to have a friend over, mic his guitar, mic your guitar, and sing, now we are starting to NEED the next step up. M-Audio's line of soundcards is here: http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.list&ID=pciinterfaces

Musiciansfriend has an entire line of M-Audio cards. The Delta 44(4in/4out) is $230 and the Delta 66(6in/6out) is $300. I didn't look whether these had MIDI I/O also or not as I know that is something you mentioned you'd need.

"Why an outboard mixer?" Mainly, ease of control. I was strictly speaking about using a harware mixer with the AP 2496. That card has only 1 analog I/O. If you were going to get a card with 4/4 or 6/6, and were planning on using all of them simultaneously, a cheap mixer with one master and one ALT bus just isn't going to do. So, in that case, I would save the cash and just use the software mixer that comes with the soundcard. Buy a pre for your MIC, or if the soundcard has that, even better. BUT, in my setup at home, where I record only 1 thing at a time, an ourboard mixer has saved me time and organized my studio. Currently, I have my electric drum kit, my footpedal, my Mic, and and my computer return running through it. Changing instruments to record is SIMPLE. Move one fader down, move the other up, just like that I'm recording vocals. The idea is to not have to MESS with the back of the computer. The 44 and the 66 both have break-out boxes I believe. The AP 2496 doesn't. I think we are clear on that now.

The headphones I suggested, the Grado SR-60's, are VERY DECENT. The price may be misleading. Go to Grado's website, http://www.gradolabs.com/frameset_main.htm and read the quotes from different magazines etc. Or you could search the net for some reviews. So, they are good headphones, at a VERY affordable price. If money is an issue, as it IS for me, these definitely fit the bill. They have SR-80's that are a touch bigger, but they also cost more.

Now software. I have recently read that the Magix software that I told you about only does 16bit/44,100. I'd look into it and see if that's true. If all you are going to do is record at 16/44,100 then I wouldn't worry about it. BUT if you are going to utilize your sweet sound card, recording at least at 24-bit is the way to go. So, you'd need better software that can handle 24-bit. Personally, I'm such a newb that I can't hear the difference between music recorded at 16/44,1 or 24/44,1 and dithered down to 16/44,1. But, I record everything at 24 bit now. Just because I am "supposed" to. More bits=bigger file sizes=more hard drive space. So, it comes down to a hard drive space/quality issue. But, it all gets moved down to 16-44,1 to put on CD anyway. Sonar, and most other high-end software I'm sure, can do 24/96K recording. It's something to look into for software if you are planning on using the higher bits and more samples.

Hope that answers your questions.

 

[Bulls Hit]

What are the advantages to purchasing a (physical) mixer as opposed to using a higher-end soundcard with an interface that accepts more than two inputs, and then using a "virtual mixer" to control the signals? From my perspective, it seems advantageous to have fewer parts of better quality rather than more parts of lesser quality. It also seems a good idea to introduce as few pieces of equipment into the signal chain as possible. Skimping on a physical mixer also seems like a good way to conserve physical space (which is a limiting factor around my PC). Still there is a lot I don't know, so I'd like to know why you went with a real mixer.

A mixer gives you several benefits.

If you are using a soundcard with more than 2 inputs, a mixer is pretty much mandatory so you can control your signal routing, apply outboard effects etc.

A mixer will have a number of preamps built-in which saves you having to buy a seperate preamp for each mic.

A mixer provides phantom power allowing you to use condensor mics without having to buy seperate power supplies for each mic

 

[bluesboy2003]

Yeah, the newbie section will get you a lot of replies. You seem to have done your homework though, and have an idea of what you want to do, so you'll be fine. You "could" make a similar post in the newbie section, just give it a different title, and DO NOT cut and paste...

I may just paste a link to this thread in a thread there, but I'll try to hold out. I help run a message board, myself, so I understand the anti-spam mentality, and respect it. Thanks for the suggestions.

"Next step up" would be whatever you think you WILL need in the future... First off, are you going to be bringing in full bands and recording demos? Probably not. That rules out really high end.

Good call Although you know how fun it is to fantasize that we can buy the most expensive bells and whistles, at the sake of functionality and reason.

Are you planning on micing any drumkits soon or in the forseeable future? Probably not.

Holy smokes, no. In this place!? I'd be stumbling out the door with ruptured eardrums, only to get attacked by rabid neighbors. Another good call

More realistically, are you ever planning on singing and playing guitar and recording both on different tracks at the same time? If so, you may need the "next step up". Or, if you are going to have a friend over, mic his guitar, mic your guitar, and sing, now we are starting to NEED the next step up.

Those situations are much more likely, and perhaps even probable. I'd like to be prepared for them, without overkilling.

Musiciansfriend has an entire line of M-Audio cards. The Delta 44(4in/4out) is $230 and the Delta 66(6in/6out) is $300. I didn't look whether these had MIDI I/O also or not as I know that is something you mentioned you'd need.

The M-Audio line does indeed look strong. I'm particularly interested in the Omni Studio package. That looks like it could be a very good solution. None of the cards have MIDI in/out. I wonder if I could somehow couple one of these card to my Creative card to utilize MIDI?

I am still looking at the E-Mu 1280 and 1280M (I believe I read somewhere on these boards that one should purchase the M version over the regular, though I am really not remembering why). I have been hunting for dirt on these units but have not had much success. I saw there was some flag-raising going on about the chip coming from Creative, but many people on that thread dismissed that. The reviews of the 1280M on zZounds seemed very positive. Still, I am wondering where the catch is. I thought someone said this card cannot do effects processing on the 96 and 192 kHz settings, only on the 48 kHz and below. I wonder how many channels it records at a time, as well. If these claims are false or negligible, one of these units might be the most wise investment for me. It seems expandable, and it has six balanced 1/4" inputs according to the zZounds site tech. descr., which would mean I could hook up to three stereo or six mono devices to it, right? It also features MIDI which would take care of that connection. And it has the headphone out, which I'd appreciate. It is pricier than the M-Audio Omni Studio package, particularly the M version, but if it has more staying power...

If you were going to get a card with 4/4 or 6/6, and were planning on using all of them simultaneously, a cheap mixer with one master and one ALT bus just isn't going to do. So, in that case, I would save the cash and just use the software mixer that comes with the soundcard.

I think that is the route I will likely take. That said, I'm still open. I haven't put down any hard-earned cash yet.

BUT, in my setup at home, where I record only 1 thing at a time, an ourboard mixer has saved me time and organized my studio. Currently, I have my electric drum kit, my footpedal, my Mic, and and my computer return running through it. Changing instruments to record is SIMPLE. Move one fader down, move the other up, just like that I'm recording vocals. The idea is to not have to MESS with the back of the computer.

Ah, I see the beauty in your setup, now. Very nice. I like low effort just as much as you do

The 44 and the 66 both have break-out boxes I believe. The AP 2496 doesn't. I think we are clear on that now.

That we are.

The headphones I suggested, the Grado SR-60's, are VERY DECENT. The price may be misleading. Go to Grado's website, http://www.gradolabs.com/frameset_main.htm and read the quotes from different magazines etc. Or you could search the net for some reviews. So, they are good headphones, at a VERY affordable price. If money is an issue, as it IS for me, these definitely fit the bill. They have SR-80's that are a touch bigger, but they also cost more.

Wow, I should not have passed over those so quickly. After reading around on the net about Grados, they do sound like a terrific deal. I am definitely going to look more deeply into them. I am still concerned about them being open backed, though. While the noise level in my apartment is not horrible, I am next to the computer, which isn't the quietest thing in the world. So my dillema is to use closed headphones which will likely run me a lot more to get somewhat accurate sonic representation, versus open ones that will sound fantastic and cost less but be susceptible to noise leaking in... Hmm... This just keeps getting tougher. Thanks very much for posting that link, though. That was probably the best thing I could have ever missed out on.

Now software. I have recently read that the Magix software that I told you about only does 16bit/44,100. I'd look into it and see if that's true. If all you are going to do is record at 16/44,100 then I wouldn't worry about it. BUT if you are going to utilize your sweet sound card, recording at least at 24-bit is the way to go.

Might as well use what I got, right? I'd like to record at 24-bit.

So, you'd need better software that can handle 24-bit. Personally, I'm such a newb that I can't hear the difference between music recorded at 16/44,1 or 24/44,1 and dithered down to 16/44,1...

You know, I'm sure it's all in the head, anyways, but it makes us feel better going through the motions, don't you think?

Sonar, and most other high-end software I'm sure, can do 24/96K recording. It's something to look into for software if you are planning on using the higher bits and more samples.

That they do. I also found that Fasoft's n-Track supports 24-bit recording, up to 192 kHz, and it's only at a fraction of the price of Sonar and the even higher-end pieces of software. I guess this decision would be best made with hardware in hand, able to test the software. I will admit, Sonar looks really slick, but again, I have to resist that temptation of buying the most bells and whistles to buying what I can actually use. I'm open to other software, too, of course, but the most buzz seems to be centered around those two programs for their respective price ranges, with n-Track probably being mid-road for the lower-end and Sonar being low-road for the higher-end (pricewise, that is).

Hope that answers your questions.

As you can see, it has answered many of my questions, and spurned many more. I guess that's the way it goes, though, eh?

Hey, at least I didn't come on here saying "Hey I bought a new Delta Q10 somebody tell me how to hook it up to my computer and record in my pirated version of Logic plz," right?

Thanks Ibrow, you're a big help!

 

[bluesboy2003]

A mixer gives you several benefits.

If you are using a soundcard with more than 2 inputs, a mixer is pretty much mandatory so you can control your signal routing, apply outboard effects etc.

A mixer will have a number of preamps built-in which saves you having to buy a seperate preamp for each mic.

A mixer provides phantom power allowing you to use condensor mics without having to buy seperate power supplies for each mic

That makes sense. It seems that more of the interfaces to the soundcards are beginning to have such features. In cases like this, would a software (virtual) mixer be okay?

Thanks.

 

[Ibrow]

It would be easiest, I think, to use the virtual mixer exclusively if your soundcard provides the pre-amps. Some do, some don't. Otherwise, you will need a pre-amp for each mic. So, if you are going to sing, play acoustic, and have a pal play acoustic backup, you will need at least 3 mics. So, you'd need at least 3 pre-amps. Which would most likely need 3 spots on a power strip. And, all the cords lying about to go into your break-out box. Messy and confusing.

With a mixer that meets your ins/outs needs, you can keep everything easily organized, have pre's for your mics, and only use one power outlet. It's just nicer, IMO.

I haven't used N-Track, nor really looked into it, but it's my understanding that it's only a tracking software, like Vegas. Is that correct? Sonar, on the other hand, is sequencing software. It gives you tracking, AND MIDI sequencing. So if you are planning on doing much of ANYTHING with MIDI, you will need a sequencer. Sonar3 has more options than my newbie self can use, but it makes sequencing just so easy. So, if you want to record just tracks, then a tracking software package will do just fine. But, if you want to be able to edit and create MIDI, you will need sequencing software. I don't do a lot with MIDI yet, but I will eventually. There's just so much it can do.

 

[bluesboy2003]

Once again, thanks Ibrow.

My XP-60 has an onboard sequencer, but it might be nice to be able to sync it to software. My PSA-1 is also MIDI-able, so I could change patches on-the-fly using Sonar...

Very interesting...

Thanks again, bud.