New tascam time! Or maybe old! 424 mk III? 488? 238? etc...

[osus]

Hello!

I'm looking to replace my much abused 424 mk I (3 out of four tracks still kickin!) with a new cassette portastudio to make song sketches with to pass between band members. I'm sold on analogue (you know why), sold on cassette (size, cheapness), sold on tascam (the name just has such a nice ring to it. 'tascam.' ahh...). But that still leaves some pretty broad vistas.

Having surfed these pages and having hovered with baited breath as 488's, 424 mk III's and suchlike have found new owners on ebay for about what I paid for my mk I three years ago, I think an upgrade is certainly acheivable. Heck, there's a 644 on ebay right now with a day left at $26. I'm also more and more intrigued by whether a 'retrograde'--to a 234, 246, 238, or what-have-you, might be a wise move. I'd love to have something I could 'grow into' to make a reasonable demo with.

I've got a couple of questions to throw into the fray:

1: How do 8 tracks on a cassette stack up against 4? The advantages are pretty obvious, but what about the cons? I'm guessing a given channel on the best 4 track is probably better than a given channel on the best 8 (since it's the same size tape) which is fine for song-sketch situations, but how about for a demo? And that means more parts to keep clean / replace...

2: Are the vintage tascams really built that much better? Obviously buying used you never know what might be lurking beneath the hood, but all things equal (in terms of condition), let's compare: a 238 to a 488 mkII; a 246 to a 424 mkIII in terms of quality of sound & reliability.

3: Rack + Mixer or stick with the portastudio? Do the 234 & 238 have more industrial strength transports and suchlike than their all-in-one cousins, or are they basically the same as the portastudios but in a rack? Are the features in a 488 mkII, 424 mkIII and other latest-generation portastudios something I could add to a rack unit by means of additional equipment, and is the quality of sound on these units worth the studio space, investment and hassle that these accessories imply?

Whew.

Thanks in advance for anyone who responds...

and yes, I broke the multiple question rule. attention span should still mean something, in politics and elsewhere.

 

[The Ghost of FM]

Question within questions?

1: How do 8 tracks on a cassette stack up against 4? The advantages are pretty obvious, but what about the cons? I'm guessing a given channel on the best 4 track is probably better than a given channel on the best 8 (since it's the same size tape) which is fine for song-sketch situations, but how about for a demo? And that means more parts to keep clean / replace...

So long as you're not bouncing, an 8 track cassette will stack up about equal to a 4 where a bounce was employed to build your production. Bounces degrade quality.

The cons with an 8 track are adjacent channel cross-talk because the guard-band in between tracks is that much narrower, so louder levels tend to bleed over to neighboring tracks which can be a problem if you want to completely isolate a part in a mix.

As for sketchpad versus demo quality; I don't know what the idealogical difference is between those two words?

2: Are the vintage TASCAM's really built that much better? Obviously buying used you never know what might be lurking beneath the hood, but all things equal (in terms of condition), let's compare: a 238 to a 488 mkII; a 246 to a 424 mkIII in terms of quality of sound & reliability.

In terms of actual parts used, I don't believe the older Portastudios were significantly better then the newer ones. Where the differences really come into play is in their application design and how much flexibility their features offered compared to the newer models. Things like a true 4 buss mixer on the 246 were features that never appeared again in subsequent models.

In a very general sense, the older Portastudios were built more to hit a quality of operational design goal and less of a price point for the retailers who sold them back in the day. As latter models came out and competition grew, many features were lopped off at the neck to remain downward competitive with Fostex and the other me-too companies of the day.

3: Rack + Mixer or stick with the Portastudio? -

Do the 234 & 238 have more industrial strength transports and suchlike than their all-in-one cousins, or are they basically the same as the Portastudios but in a rack? -

Are the features in a 488 mkII, 424 mkIII and other latest-generation Portastudios something I could add to a rack unit by means of additional equipment, and

is the quality of sound on these units worth the studio space, investment and hassle that these accessories imply?

Separate components tend to offer more possibilities of alternate connections which may be of importance if your needs require them.

Again, referring to parts quality, there isn't a significant difference between a component cassette recorder and it's Portastudio cousin.

You should only consider exploring the component approach if your mixing needs are not met by the Portastudio in question.

As an example, If you need to have tape tracks and virtual midi tracks running at the same time, you might need way more mixing channels to bring together 3 or 7 tape tracks and a bank of midi instruments into a final mixdown and in such a case, having a separate recorder deck and a 24 channel mixer may come in very handy.

If on the other hand, you are recording a simple rendition of your song, an all in one Portastudio may do the trick without too much expense.

Cheers!

 

[jake-owa]

Don't fear the reeldeck....c'mon baby...don't fear the reeldeck.

You will never go back to cassette once you have tasted the delights of a reel to reel. If you want something all in one go with a Tascam 388.

 

[osus]

Thanks for the responses! This information has clarified my direction considerably.

I'd be sold on reels except that I'm looking for a medium that band members can pass between them & rehearse with / write to, which means everyone will need a similar or identical machine to play with and a common medium. Cassettes multi-tracks are cheap, cassettes themselves cheaper. I'm thinking of doing things in stages--getting a 238 & an agile mixer for the 'studio' (e.g, myself) and then having the various band members use portastudios to rehearse with recordings of our sessions / throw ideas together with. Then (eventually) I could add a 38 (or something equally impressive) for when we get down to serious recording.

Which leads me to another question... I've read threads in this section about moving back and forth from 8 track cassette and 4 track, and the review of the 488 mkII is very insightful in this regard... I'm curious 1. how this works (it seems like the 488 ought to read two tracks of the same recording where the 424 recorded one, rather than having blank tracks where the duplicate tracks should be) and 2. if the same function holds true for the 238? Is it possible to put an 8 track cassette into a 4 track recorder without bouncing to 4 tracks first? Apologies in advance if these questions are answered elsewhere--the search function doesn't seem to be working and I got bleary-eyed by page 50... sooo muuuch daaaataaaa ....

Thanks again!

 

[monty]

Just get a used 488 mkll. I did and I love it. I want another one just to have for a spare...or just because I really like them. I think the one I got had the crap used out of it, but it still works like new. The mkll has the EQ (sweepable) that really helps.

 

[DigitalSmigital]

Is it possible to put an 8 track cassette into a 4 track recorder without bouncing to 4 tracks first? Apologies in advance if these questions are answered elsewhere--the search function doesn't seem to be working and I got bleary-eyed by page 50... sooo muuuch daaaataaaa ....

Thanks again!

I don't think that has been asked, and is an interesting question.

Pop a tape from the 488 into a 424 and what would you hear? A garbled noise? I don't think so.

I imagine it would be an un-mixable reading of the 8 tracks! I wait with bated breath for the True Gurus to answer this intriguing dilemna...

 

[A Reel Person]

Hello,... and shouts go out to monty! He's the man, people. Listen to monty.

Okay,...

The first question I'd like to address, is that of popping an 8-track cassette from a [488/488ii/688/238] to a 4-track cassette Portastudio.

> JUST BY THE BOOK, folks, it WON'T work, because the tracks on an 8-track Portastudio are grouped into two groups: 1-4 and 5-8,... (groups) which are physically offset (staggered) from each other. SO, when a standard 4-track cassette head reads those 8 tracks, there will be a very slight but discernable track delay between adjacent tracks.

If I may, I'd like to represent this by a crude typeset diagram:

(8-track cassette):
-1---2---3---4
-|---|---|---|
---|---|---|---|
---5---6---7---8

(4-track cassette):
1----2----3----4
||---||---||---||

....

ALSO,... BY THE BOOK, (Tascam manual),... a Tascam 4-track tape should NOT be 100% compatible with the 488,... (which may not be obvious on the crude diagram above). The 4-track's (tracks #1 & #2), should read on the 8-track's (tracks #1 & #2),... BUT, the 4-track's (tracks #3 & #4), should read on the 8-track's (tracks #7 & #8),... with the caveat being that tracks 1/2 & 7/8 are OFFSET from each other.

...

Anyhow, I've read the write ups on the 488ii, also, and I've also read where the user was able to use his 4-track cassette masters in the 488,... so I guess it bears out a little more investigation. The Tascam Portastudio manual indicates it should NOT work, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. There should be a rudimentary test of this principle, before charging headlong into 4-track cassette -in-an- 8-track Portastudio "upgrade".

...

Anyone who has any of the Tascam Portastudio manuals can read the head diagrams themselves, if they wish, but as I just said, some user tests should be done to reach your final conclusions.

Cheers!!

 

[The Ghost of FM]

To elaborate on ARP's excellent pictograph;

The icon will represent no sound
The icon will represent sound and track placement on the head.




Tape travels this way ^

Cheers!

 

[A Reel Person]

Dang, Ghost,... you're quick on the uptake!!!

 

[A Reel Person]

...

Having said that,... (above),...

I'll go on to say, that there's nothing wrong with scoring either a 424mkII/mkIII, 488/mkII, 688 or 238. Throw in with that, the 244, 246, & 234,... are ALL fine units, worth having.

The best thing about the 424mkIII, I suppose, is that it's still available as brand new stock from retailers,... and all the other units mentioned are Ebay-type items.

Funny enough, I suppose, is that I have all the units listed above. Not only do I "think" they are all great and worthy units, but I've put my money where my mouth is. That's my testimonial. Peace, Out. /DA

 

[DigitalSmigital]

DigitalSmigital: (doing a Forest Gump imitation) They always did have a way of explaining things so's I could understand them...