new or used tube amp

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tc4b

tc4b

Yeah I been drinkin, SO!?
I'm FINALLY ditching my line 6 amp in favor of a tube amp. I don't have a specific tone I'm going for, just the opposite of my current digital amp. If my amp were poultry, I'd say I've been eating a steady diet of processed chicken patties. Now I'm looking for something more like eating the head off a live bird. If my analogy makes any sense. I don't need good cleans, but something more like the speaker cab is full of gravel and/or warm snot.

I know it's an over-correction to my sterile-sounding line 6, but it's just how i want my guitar to sound for awhile. My question is, should I buy a new tube amp (I like the blackheart in my pricerange, maybe extend a little for the blues jr) or an old used one (right now I'm looking at 60's Gibson Skylarks). I'll most likely put either an 808 or a fulltone ocd in front of whatever I buy, in case that matters.

ANy other suggestions on amps are also welcome. I'm looking to spend about $400.
 
You'll save some bucks for a used one, but don't buy an amp just because it's "tube." Take your time to try out a bunch of them and see what actually gives you the sound you're looking for.
 
well .. the analogies aren't very useful although entertaining.

What kind of music are you into?
From the gravel/snot description, I'm gonna say the Blues Jr.'s not the right amp. I have one and it's very blah sounding. I use it for gigs where its' small weight/size make it appealing but if you're wanting to get away from that sterile sound, the Blues Jr.'s just gonna be more of the same.
The Blackheart might be a good choice.
Also ..... maybe you could pick up a used Orange Tiny Terror ...... I love mine and it has a lot of character to the sound which is what it feels like you might be looking for. OIf course, you'd need a speaker for that.
But more info about your intended music and use (recording/gigging) would help.
 
I would go used just because it is more bang for the buck and what are you getting new anyways; a year warranty?

But, I would stay away from the Gibsons.
 
How about looking for an old blackface Fender Bassman? You can control just how dirty or clean it is to a certain extent if you put the right combination of tubes in it. You can also affect that with setting your bias a little differently. As long as you are going to have a pedal in front of it for verbs and any extra drive that you want, the Bassman will be a solid amp with a lot of versatility and will retain its value very well. You can also go with lower wattage speakers if you need to get a little extra crunch on the speaker side as well. Bottom line though, is that the older Bassmans have a great and flexible starting point as far as tone goes, are built well, and retain their value well (lately they have gone up).
 
If you can find an old bassman inside your budget, go for that.

I'm a fan of the Gibson Skylark, but if there's one way that they're the opposite of your line 6, it would be versatility :D -- I've got two of the "crestline" models without tremolo, which means they have just an on/off switch and a volume knob. They sound pretty different from one another -- the first one I got is so bright that I can't even use it with some guitars I have that sound bright to begin with.

I bought the second one for parts, and wound up getting it overhauled a the local amp tech shop -- you should be prepared to seek/make repairs if you go with an old one.

I know there are many models of skylark across the years -- mine use 6AQ5 or EL90 power tubes, which can be hard to find (the other tubes aren't too common either -- 6EU7 for preamp, 6C4 for phase inverter, and 6X4 for rectifier).

If you get a chance to try out your guitar(s) before buying, do it -- the skylarks really bring out the sound of the guitar, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.
 
Thanks for the tips, all.

Kind of music:
Well, everything. It would be easier to list what I don't look for: country twang, heavy metal, or jazz. I only record guitar, and as far as style, usually wherever my imagination takes me.

You might be tempted to reccommend something versatile, but don't worry about it. I just want a dirty, non-digital-sounding guitar, with lots of character.

The problem with used amps is not being able to try them, only relying on what I hear on YouTube demos. Unless I happen to find somehting interesting at a retail location, but the used amp selection is usually very small. When it comes to used, I'd most likely be jumping in blind. That doesn't bother me too much, BTW. I don't mind being surprised. Just need some pointers from nice folks like you.

Any other dirty old used amp reccomendations would be appreciated, thanks!
 
Bassman looks expensive, I might stretch a little financially if it was a combo, but all I see is heads. When you throw in the cost of a cab, it's too much right now. That's also the reason I don't get the Tiny Terror, though I would love one! If this were an amp for gigging, or I though it was going to me my soulmate and stay with me forever, I'd save up more and be pickier.

edit: Wait, found bassman combos, but they're labeled bass amps, not guitar. Um... is it the same thing as the blackface you recommended? Forgive my ignorance (I'm a keyboard player primarily, guitar is just for fun) if the answer is well-known and obvious.
 
tc4b said:
I just want a dirty, non-digital-sounding guitar, with lots of character.
Click to expand...

This is exactly how I used to describe my Traynor YCV20WR. You can get one new shipped for $525 from affordableaudio.com, but they are on ebay once in a while. Dont buy it if it isn't the "WR" version.

If you did get that amp, it would be a lot easier to work with if you put a decent EQ pedal in front of it. Fabulous cleans, but most reviewers dont like the boosted lead sound. It tends to be a little too dirty (but not heavy metal dirty, just not boooteek dirty) and I suspect an EQ pedal would tame that easily.

The Blues Jr sounds like a good bet to me, but buying one used might actually be an advantage because the used market includes a lot of BJ's that were made in the USA (not in Mexico). The BJ sounds absolutely awesome if you get one that has an Eminence Cannabis Rex speaker in it. The newer reissue ones that are kinda golden wheat color were coming from the factory for a while with Eminence speakers in them. I imagine the BJ would sound absolutely awesome with an alnico Jensen in it.

Otherwise, you wont find a lot of options in the price range, nothing that (imo) is worth mentioning. Like the Lt says, the Orange amps are fantastic, but they cost more.

If you want to experiment and buy something better later, you might consider forking out $260 bucks for a Vox AD30 ValveTronix. Some people say they have repair issues, but I've had mine for a year and not had any problems. I added a speaker jack and changed the stock speaker to a Delta Demon and the thing sounds great! Very versatile, will do any of the sounds you are looking for well enough to let you decide if you want to invest in a "real" tube amp later. But the AD30 is a 10 inch speaker. For about $350 the AD50 has a 12 inch speaker but with all the same sounds, and already has the speaker jack built in. Sounds great thru an alnico Weber Blue Dog. These amps are nice also because they both have the power soak knob on the back to adjust the speaker volume. You can get any sound you want at any volume you want......but like any amp with a tube in it, it sounds best cranked up thru a good speaker.
 
First, go to some music stores and try out a bunch of different tube amps to see what you like. There are crappy tube amps as well.

Given your price range, you probably want to look used.

Craigslist is a great place to start.

Nice thing about going used is if you get the amp and don't like it, there is a good chance you can sell it without losing any money.

You might even be able to get something like a fender hotrod deluxe with that much money.
 
Be honest with yourself about your power needs. To get the tone you're talking about, you'll need to be able to crank it. The tubes don't get dirty unless you push them. The tone you get using a master volume for this purpose is less satisfying. Unless you're working with a drummer you don't need much more than 12 watts. There are a bunch of great low-watt tube amps out there.

The guy that said to avoid Gibsons is probably right. I use a '66 Explorer as my main amp. It's a great amp, warm and sweet. But it's not exactly a crunch machine.
 
that Traynor recommendation is a pretty good one. They make some nice amps.
The Vox Valvetronics might be another choice although it's a hybrid. Tube in the preamp with modeling and a SS power amp. But they sound petty damned good.
If it's not for gigging but just recording ...... I think you might consider the Blackheart ......
and a sleeper that some will laugh at but ..... the Crate Palomino ..... .. the V5, V16 and V30 (named for their power levels) are really sweet sounding amps. I would have to immediately remove the crate badge and mumble when anyone asked me what it was :D:D:D:D but I played around with the V5 and it was truly an excellent sounding amp.
Also ..... if you're decent with electronics ...... you could build a kit.
Weber has so many different kits it's hard to pick one and they're at all price ranges.
Also Ceriatone has nice kits.
 
A common misconception.....

The tube in the Valvetronix is, oddly, not in the preamp......it is actually in the pseudo power section of the amp, then it's as if the solid state power amp "reamps" the tube signal to make it loud enough for the speaker.

But if I read the other forums correctly, the modeling is all done in the solid state preamp section, and the tube is like a "pre-power amp" section all by itself. Supposedly, that's why it doesn't really sound like other solid state amps.
 
I'll have to try the palomino and the valvetronix.

I definitely don't need a lot of power. In fact, if the amp I end up with is a little too loud cranked, I had planned on putting it and the sm57 in an iso booth and playing guitar in the control room. But yes, it will need to be pushed.

Oh, and I wouldn't be embarassed by the brand name if it's a crate as long as I like the way it sounds. Besides, the blackheart is a crate as well.
 
soundchaser59 said:
A common misconception.....
Click to expand...
not really. The tube is part of a feedback circuit at the front end of the power amp. Despite their pseudo-power amp terms ..... it's still part of the modeler ..... it's just tied to the speaker so it can 'read' what's going on and get the output of the preamp to behave in a way that mimics what a completely tubed power amp would do. It's still a form of modeling in front of a SS amp.
Another example ..... a Vox Tonelab has the same circuit and it has no power amp at all, plus it's designed to be used in front of a guitar amp if you wish, specifically in that case it would actually go in front of the guitar amps preamp and you wouldn't use even a tiny power amp in front of a guitar amps' pre. So it's a simulation of a tubed power amp.
They can call it a pseudo tube amp and print a block diagram where the little box with 'Valve Reactor' is drawn over by the power amp if they wish but it's a modeler and part of the preamp .... it's not some new kind of power amp circuit.
It's a very good modeler though.
 
you really need to find what sort of tone you're looking for first and then go from there. a Fender Deluxe Reverb will sound totally different from a Marshall JCM900, which sounds totally different from an AC30. Hell, an AC15 sounds different from an AC30.

so, first is finding out what sort of tone you want. what sort of guitars and music do you play? fwiw, these days country players often use Marshalls and Voxes too--there's not really such thing as a "country amp".

second, how much power do you need? or maybe more importantly, how loud can you get it without the wife/neighbors getting mad? :D as noted, tube amps need to be pushed a bit in order to get in their sweet spot.......and that can get really loud. likewise, running a tube amp under its sweet spot can sound really anemic. there's nothing worse than a Fender Twin on 2.

for a fender Bassman (50W) or Vox AC30, you need to have the space to get it pumping.....and they get LOUD. My buddy's silverface Twin is painful to be in the same zipcode with when turned up past 3. even my 6W '74 modified Vibro Champ will take your head off when turned up to crunch.

amps like the Epi ValveJr and Crate Blackheart are nice, but they're more of 1-trick ponies. i've got a ValveJr and i really dig it.......but it's not a versatile amp in the least. it does the crunch thing and that's about it, really.

if you need versatility, i would look at a silverface Fender Champ or a Princeton and use pedals for overdrive.


cheers,
wade
 
tc4b said:
ANy other suggestions on amps are also welcome. I'm looking to spend about $400.
Click to expand...

Crate V-Series.
Don't buy a low end tube amp without giving them a try. I own two. And, I just bought a Mesa.... if I had to give up one or the other, I would kick the mesa to the curb without blinking.

~Shawn
 
eyema_believer said:
Crate V-Series.
Don't buy a low end tube amp without giving them a try. I own two. And, I just bought a Mesa.... if I had to give up one or the other, I would kick the mesa to the curb without blinking.

~Shawn
Click to expand...

Where do you live? You can keep the Crate and I'll come rescue that Mesa from your curb at no charge to you!
 
Lt. Bob said:
not really. The tube is part of a feedback circuit at the front end of the power amp. Despite their pseudo-power amp terms ..... it's still part of the modeler ..... it's just tied to the speaker so it can 'read' what's going on and get the output of the preamp to behave in a way that mimics what a completely tubed power amp would do. It's still a form of modeling in front of a SS amp.
Another example ..... a Vox Tonelab has the same circuit and it has no power amp at all, plus it's designed to be used in front of a guitar amp if you wish, specifically in that case it would actually go in front of the guitar amps preamp and you wouldn't use even a tiny power amp in front of a guitar amps' pre. So it's a simulation of a tubed power amp.
They can call it a pseudo tube amp and print a block diagram where the little box with 'Valve Reactor' is drawn over by the power amp if they wish but it's a modeler and part of the preamp .... it's not some new kind of power amp circuit.
It's a very good modeler though.
Click to expand...


Interesting......thanks for clarifying.

This must help explain why I want to sell my Valvetronix amps, even though the modeling is pretty good. The more I play my Mesa, the more I cant wait for someone to buy the Vox.

I am watching this thread, cuz I am looking for a decent "carry-it-in-one-hand-and-get-tube-tone-built-like-a-tank" practice amp. If I had money to burn I woulda ordered the THD Flexi-50 from Portland Music Company last Friday. But I dont know if I wanna wait til I have the money before I acquire my next "practice amp".....:D If I were to get a Flexi-50, then the Mesa would probably become my new practice amp.....
 
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