New drum clips

[Seeker of Rock]

For those of you who have followed and helped me, link below will take you to my soundclick site. Old MSR samples are appropriately labeled as such, and the new sample is titled HD24 dry drum sample. This is just a rough mix and dry from the DM Pro into the board to the recorder and back again. Let me know what you think so far. Kind of cool to A/B the MSR and HD24 as well. HD24 doesn't have that sweet tape saturation, but oh well I still think it sounds decent though, for a computer anyway.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=244666

EDIT: Disclaimers...the MSR tracks were not recorded well, so not a great comparison, but even through the distortion I can still hear the character, just a bad recording of it. I already know I am not a good drummer by any means, just play enough to put down tracks to my songs. Especially on the MSR samples...I was drinking a bit of wine when I recorded at least MSR sample 2, and I can definitely tell

 

[Seeker of Rock]

I updated the clip. Eq'd a little more low into the snare, a little less high into the toms and a little less low in the kick. The mix sucks...snare is hot and toms are low. I'm pushing to '0' on the Mackie L/R and occasionally breaching the reds during some of the snare hits. Snare will get a little compression eventually, this is just a dry run. Toms may get a little as well. You won't hear signal until about 11 seconds in if you do listen.

EDIT: Just added a rough mix and sent it through the two bus. Updated on soundclick, same link. Sorry if you listened to the other ones. It should sound relatively close to what I'm looking to get out of it now, as a dry sample. Minus compression to tame the snare which it desperately needs, reverb, etc. It is a rough EQ too. Any suggestions are welcome.

Post Edit Edit: My Mackie 24.8 bought it without the meter bridge but bought a meter bridge for it a few months ago. The channels are all LED, same as the L/R master and 8 bus on the board itself, but the L/R on the meter bridge is VU. Just curious if anyone has worked with a Mackie 8 bus and a meter bridge...LEDs match on the meter bridge channels to the LEDs on the master board, but the VU L/R on the bridge and LEDs on the actual board don't register the same signal. Everything seems to be on the same page with the LEDs, meter bridge LEDs and board LEDs, but the VU meters read low. Any thoughts? Poor VU meter calibration at the factory? Poor LED calibration throughout? Just curious, same signal two different readings. I'm using my ears to what I push, cautiously, but still I wonder why this is.

 

[Doc Holiday]

Completely off topic, but I listened to Wild Eyed Jim's again while checking out your drum samples. Are you doing all the parts on that song or is it a band? I know you used a 488, but how many tracks did you end up using. Just curious, sounds good.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

That was the would-be MSR and now HD24's predecessor, the 488MKII with some decent outboard gear, good advice during mixdown from the find folks here. It is all me. I played in a lot of different bands in my younger years and it may have given me a taste for playing and making something that sounded a little "live". I've never been a 'great player' at any one instrument, and not to be cliche', but more of an overall musician that just kind of digs music and playing it. I play all the parts, but more importantly (to me, anyway) I WRITE the parts. Not an accomplished or even trained bass player, but I know, to my ear anyway, what my song needs; I write the part, practice it, then record it. Same with drums, same with vox, and keys when I attempt them. Thanks for the compliment man.

EDIT: sorry, forgot to answer....8 tracks, no bouncing...1 Fender active Jazz Bass into a Joemeek MQ3, 2, '98 LP std into a Fender Super Reverb for solos, 3 Telecaster into the Super Reverb for rhythm #1, track 4 LP through '84 JCM 800 half stack for rhythm #2, track 5 and 6 DM Pro through a Joemeek MQ3 to the 488, 7 scratch vocal track through a JM 47 and MQ3 which I mixed lightly in as a double, track 8 main vocal through the same as the scratch track. VLA Pro compression out from the 2 bus, ART EQ to tweak the overall a little, Alesis Midiverb IV in the board loop. I have a Jim Williams modded Lexi LXP-15II and a VC1qcs to play with now, so I'm looking forward to finally getting around to tracking again!

Oh yeah, I feel bad for not remembering all of the names, but a few users here really helped me with the mix, step by step guided me through. Ghost was one, and a couple more key helpers...again I feel bad for not remebering and that is really what let me get that sound out of that machine. I should just do a search...

All that said, any advice on the latest drum clip? Same kit, just starting a little new with a 24 ch. board and 24 track recorder. Any advice, especially early on, is much appreciated

 

[Doc Holiday]

That was the would-be MSR and now HD24's predecessor, the 488MKII with some decent outboard gear, good advice during mixdown from the find folks here. It is all me. I played in a lot of different bands in my younger years and it may have given me a taste for playing and making something that sounded a little "live". I've never been a 'great player' at any one instrument, and not to be cliche', but more of an overall musician that just kind of digs music and playing it. I play all the parts, but more importantly (to me, anyway) I WRITE the parts. Not an accomplished or even trained bass player, but I know what a song needs, write, then play it. Same with drums, same with vox, and keys when I attempt them. Thanks for the compliment man.

That's cool man. I'm kind of in the same situation. I played in bands for years. The last couple of years I've been doing this one man band thing at home, recording stuff, experimenting with whatever recording equipment I can get my hands on. Mostly low budget stuff. I've found that I have a tendency to get bogged down with the experimenting with equipment side of things instead of focusing on the music. But I've learned a lot these last couple of years, mostly through trial and error. It's great to have the ability to capture your ideas at home, no matter what kind of equipment you have. If your like me, it's all about getting those songs out of your head and onto disc or tape or whatever.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

I edited after you posted, so I'll ask for any thoughts or advice on the drum clip (it is dry mind you, same kit on Wild-Eyed Jim's but tweaked a little better and now through a different setup). Any advice is welcome, because as we all do I am pretty much shooting into the breeze. I know what starts to sound good to me, but other opinions sometimes, not all of the time, help you hear or think about things that you don't pay attention to.

Back to your reply, it IS all about the music. That is why I love this forum. Some of my favorite listenings are in the MP3 clinic. Raw, untainted music for the most part, except for those trying to imitate the latest/greatest recording stars, I guess which I am guilty of sometimes myself whether I want to admit or not. Anyway, independant artists writing how they write as musicians with no corporate pressure....that, I believe, is the future of music, the "Nirvana" of the '90s, G-n-R or VH of '80s, Led Zeppelin of the '70s (yeah I know '68 I believe was LEd Zep I, but the '70s were when they really ruled), etc. etc. Writing what you want to write about, what you've been through, how you feel or want to feel, with no one censoring or playing 'mother' to your ideas. Hmmmm....strange concept.

 

[Doc Holiday]

I downloaded drum sample2 and the HD24 sample. The only thing that jumps out out at me is that the HD24 sample is a lot louder.
As far as the WEJ tune, the drums sit well in the mix. Everything sits well in the mix as far as I can tell. What kind of reverb were you using on the vocals?

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Alesis Midiverb IV, pre Lexicon that I now have in the arsenal, but no matter what anyone says, I still love that MV4 unit. It was a demo from Mars and I use the user preset section, so maybe those guys got a good setting because even though the Lexi is awesome I still can't say it "blows the Alesis away". The user defined settings are awesome on that unit, IMHO.

Back to where I what I need your brain for...yeah, the HD sample has a little more umph because the MSR was giving me problems. I couldn't seem to get the level up without an inherent hum. I ended up tracing it to the output section and after many times to the tech, it still has problems. Unfortunately when I bought it off ebay last May or June, can't exactly remember, it was a troubled unit. I didn't find it out until I got it back from the tech for a "going over", which is all I wanted, then he told me of several things it needed but failed to mention that the NR didn't work which seems to end up being either him creating little anomalies in the unit or it just has something wrong internally, whatever it being it produces hum, ever so slight but noticeable at high sensitivity pops and crackles, hiss because the NR doesn't work right, and havoc upon seeker. I really wish it would've been up to par, but the new recorder is doing the job well so far. No "flavor" yet, maybe a little from the board, but I like to work my outboard toys....a little meek compression to calm and flavor the snare and probably the other for the toms (I hear VC1qcs on snare, MQ3 on toms for now), a little reverb and more definition on EQ and mix, and it should sound alright. I see it like looking at a woman without makeup. It ain't going to look like a Victoria's Secret model when she first wakes up and it ain't gonna sound like a million bucks with a digital drum kit dry, but if the basics are there, you can build on that and glam it up along the way. Just trying to get some input on the drums without makeup when they first get out of bed.

 

[Doc Holiday]

Good analogy. Occasionally, you come across one that is just as sexy w/o all the makeup. Maybe this setup will turn out to be that way for you. I've follwed you posts about all the troubles you've had recently. That's too bad man. But hang in there. You've got talent and a love for music and that is AWESOME! Things will get better. Good luck!

 

[Seeker of Rock]

I appreciate your encouragement, man. It has been a trying road for the money I have spent. Sidenote, the HD24 I picked up Monday night was getting signals from input but nothing during playback. I'm not really superstitious, but I started to worry. I called Alesis tech support and the guy seemed a little baffled, which is not good. After a couple of hmmms, he had me do a power down and back up while holding the play and record buttons to restore system defaults and ever since it has been fine. Had me worried, though, about luck with recorders.
Thanks again for the kind words. As far as the DM Pro, and I will call them my drums because that is what they are going to be, I should have done this on WEJ. Instead, I just ran by the seat of my pants and tried to fix things along the way. The knowledgable people on this forum helped me once everything was tracked and I got a decent end result. This time I am trying to get the opinions and advice before I begin (get her to look as good as she can before the makeup is applied). It can only help in the long run.

 

[arjoll]

LEDs match on the meter bridge channels to the LEDs on the master board, but the VU L/R on the bridge and LEDs on the actual board don't register the same signal. Everything seems to be on the same page with the LEDs, meter bridge LEDs and board LEDs, but the VU meters read low. Any thoughts? Poor VU meter calibration at the factory? Poor LED calibration throughout? Just curious, same signal two different readings. I'm using my ears to what I push, cautiously, but still I wonder why this is.

I remember seeing a note near the back of the manual (can't remember if it was for the 24.8 or the meter bridge) pointing out that the L/R metering on the board is peak, and the meter bridge is VU - i.e. emulates the ballistics of a moving coil VU meter which tends to indicate average rather than peak levels. Its in there somewhere!

 

[Doc Holiday]

Sidenote, the HD24 I picked up Monday night was getting signals from input but nothing during playback. I'm not really superstitious, but I started to worry.

Women! Just when you think you've got them figured out. I guess even the best of them are flawed.
Sorry I wasn't much help with the drum sample comparisons. I got sidetracked listening to WEJ. I just think that it is pretty cool that you got that much mileage out of the 488mkiii.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Thanks man. I have to admit, there were a lot of smoke and mirrors used with that recording. I thought about this today before I posted the dry clip of the drums. If I played back the raw recording on cassette alone, it sounds much different. I remember laying the few effects I had at the time and tweaking and turning and doing the same thing I am doing with the dry drum tracks today/tonight...starting at a base point, tweaking this here, turning that there listening and burning CD's of rough things, listening back to them (and posting for feedback) until they sound better, better, better (sometimes a little worse, then move forward again) until you end up hearing close to what you hear in your head. It wasn't pretty during WEJ, the rooms (ceramic tile recording floor and concrete walls for one of the rhythm tracks and the solo tracks, carpeted apartment 'baby' room for the vocals, etc.), but we all try to get as close to what we hear in our heads as we can, with what we have to work with, and I guess that is what makes this forum so cool. No banker sitting on the other end of the phone saying "it needs more energy, it needs to be more marketable, spend another $5K to get it right then maybe we will offer you a contract, but it is only a loan and we get 55% off the top plus another 10% interest on what was forwarded to you until the balance is paid in full".
I am way off topic, but fortunately most of the people who hang out here are "real"...about the music and not the hype, about what sounds good to your ears. Like I said too, I can do some cheap tricks with a little bit of outboard gear to 'throw on some makeup', but I remember posting several times in a row with new mixes and for several days in a row, guided by the people here, that really made the tune sound like it does. Don't get me wrong, the song is the song and it has some cool little parts on a 12 bar basic, and I particularly dig the bass lines I put down, but it didn't come together, mend, until the mix and it was a "ask-fix-ask-fix" process until it became a final home recording.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

I remember seeing a note near the back of the manual (can't remember if it was for the 24.8 or the meter bridge) pointing out that the L/R metering on the board is peak, and the meter bridge is VU - i.e. emulates the ballistics of a moving coil VU meter which tends to indicate average rather than peak levels. Its in there somewhere!

Dude, I am the worst reader in the world. It is probably my least favorite thing to do, but thanks to you AGAIN I have manual in hand for board and meter bridge. How many drinks do I owe you now for all of your help??? Be back in a second after I look through these manuals.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Damnit, it figures. Just as you said Andrew, on the back page of the meter manual. Explains differences but never tells you which is more accurate. Manual say, "VUs do an average signal and are slower than the LEDs". Actually, I have found that they bounce quite rapidly and are very responsive. They just read different peaks than the L/R LEDs I know when in doubt listen to your ears. I did that and am getting the "feel" for what I can push, but I wonder why they just don't calibrate the peaks to work in tandem. I guess life would be boring if that were the case . Thanks again for your help, man. To say "I owe you one" would be an understatement.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Off topic even more...I'm tired but I spent the last couple of hours writing what I think is a cool tune. Took the acoustic outside on the deck, thought I had an idea, but then nothing. Packed the acoustic up, heading inside and this idea, simple at first, hits me. Then I find myself humming it as I carry guitar and smokes and lighter in the house. So then I go back out, unpack and I have something that I dig. On the trusty Sony tape recorder as usual. Thing that will suck in the morning is the rhythm is such that I can't pick it out "live" while singing the melody, at least not tonight (that is one of the cool things about multitrack recorders I guess). But I hear both of them distinctly in my head, along with Charlie Manson whispering "the White Album, man, that is where all of the answers are". Weel, maybe not. Anyway, after several beers through the day and a little wine tonight, still able to function just very tired at this point, I managed a good enough "live version" to record the feel and backbone of the song. I was looking for something fresh and different and got it. Just wonder if I can make the production happen....interjections of BAck STreet Boys or similar boy band near the start, modern day hip hop at the next and death metal for the third. And believe it or not, the jest of the song is kind of mellow, not really 12 bar but a little bit of it. Should be interesting when it gets recorded. Just have to find the right stereotypical interjections of the styles/songs I am looking for to use in their "solo" parts.
I probably should get some rest now.

No one else with direction on the drum clips, what I could be doing better, what needs work, etc?

 

[arjoll]

Explains differences but never tells you which is more accurate. Manual say, "VUs do an average signal and are slower than the LEDs". Actually, I have found that they bounce quite rapidly and are very responsive. They just read different peaks than the L/R LEDs

They are both correct. A proper VU meter gives some indication of how loud things sound, but the peak meters will give you a far better idea of instintaneous (sp?) peaks - and if you're recording via digital you need to take note of these peaks, as they're the things that will push you about zero so you run out of bits.

Thanks again for your help, man. To say "I owe you one" would be an understatement.

No worries!