Need help with Bass tracks

[chewbacaface]

Okay, so I have been mixing this song for the last two nights and I'm having some issues with the bass track. I recorded it with two mics. The first was an EV RE20 close mic offset on the speaker. The second was a Blue Baby Bottle about 3.5 ft away. Both tracks sound good in their own way. The RE20 has a lot of mid lows and a good amount of the driving sound but not a lot of high end. The Baby Bottle has a good bit of top end and a lot of sub but not much in the middle. I was blending both of them but the Baby Bottle was adding a lot of rumble. I really like the way this track sounds with just the RE20 but it is lacking definition. I was thinking about adding the Baby Bottle back in with a high pass filter on it so that I was just using the top end for clarity. Has anyone every tried that? Or, does anyone have any tricks for getting a little more definition out of this and clearing up the mud a little? Here is a link to the track. Any help is greatly appreciated. Bass tracks are admittedly my nemesis.

Thanks,
Ryan

Clouds by Ryan Spradlin on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

 

[jerberson12]

I'm not sure about recording bass using a mic. I usually use direct and always comes out good. But give it a try. Then you can use your eq and sweep some unwanted freq

 

[Greg_L]

I record my bass with a 57. No problem. I don't EQ it all.

This bass tone is not very good to me. It's flubby and muddy. Instead of jacking around with multiple mics, get the bass tone sounding correct from the amp.

I think, just my opinion, that people don't really know how to dial in a bass tone. Everyone spends hours and hours on guitars, hopefully they spend as much time or more on drum tuning and mic placement, but they just turn on the bass amp and go. Bass has tone too! For me, like guitar, a good bass tone lies in the midrange. It's a bass - it's naturally gonna have tons of lows. Not much need to fiddle around down there unless you're taking some out. Get the mids and upper mids right and you're good to go. Tweak the highs for clarity and pick attack, if you use a pick. A bass that sounds too bright on it's own in the room is probably just right for a clean bass in a mix - unless you just want a bunch of rumbling down there. From there, all you might need is mild EQ and compression to really get it shine.

 

[miroslav]

Bass tracks are admittedly my nemesis.

You can muck about with the track you already have, I'm sure you will find a combination of EQ and the two tracks that will work...
...but next time try plugging the bass into a DI and bypassing any mics...or do a mic and a DI.

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah go DI. Tons of people do it. It works. I'd rather use an amp myself.

 

[60's guy]

Yeah go DI. Tons of people do it. It works. I'd rather use an amp myself.

If you did record direct, what preamp would you recommend to direct record a bass with?

 

[60's guy]

I'm not sure about recording bass using a mic.

It all depends on the amp used, mic, and mic placement. I've used a 57 a few times with good results but it's all dependent on what the amp is putting out.

When in doubt, DI the bass through a decent preamp. GT Brick is a good choice to begin with, albeit limited to 55dB gain.

 

[Greg_L]

I don't know. I'm not up to snuff on all the stand-alone Pres out there. For home recording a bass direct.....I'd guess that the built in Pres in any decent quality interface would be sufficient. Or maybe a good DI like a SansAmp unit. I dunno.

And of course there's some damn good modellers out there.

 

[60's guy]

I'd guess that the built in Pres in any decent quality interface would be sufficient. Or maybe a good DI like a SansAmp unit. I dunno.

I can't speak to the quality of interface preamps, but I would agree that the SansAmp is a good choice.

 

[witzendoz]

I aways record with a mic and DI to separate tracks. The mic track has saved me heaps of times when the bass player makes loads of string and finger noise by not playing wit the correct technique. For mics I use anything, a AKGC400b is my favourite, but also a SM57 or a Sennheiser 421 work as well. The quality of the DI makes a big difference and different DI's sound good on different basses. If you have a compressor or preamp that has an instrument input, like a TL (HHB) Fatman, an old DBX 163 or Studio Projects VTB-1, use that instead of a DI.

Check the phase between the DI and the Mic, the way you describe your setup I would not mind betting that the problem is phase when the 2 mics are blended together. If you are digital have a look at the waves, are the peaks inline? If not try moving the signal from the blue baby so it's inline with the closer mic (RE20), then try to blend them again.

Alan.

 

[Justsomeguy]

I think, just my opinion, that people don't really know how to dial in a bass tone. Everyone spends hours and hours on guitars, hopefully they spend as much time or more on drum tuning and mic placement, but they just turn on the bass amp and go. Bass has tone too! For me, like guitar, a good bass tone lies in the midrange. It's a bass - it's naturally gonna have tons of lows. Not much need to fiddle around down there unless you're taking some out. Get the mids and upper mids right and you're good to go. Tweak the highs for clarity and pick attack, if you use a pick. A bass that sounds too bright on it's own in the room is probably just right for a clean bass in a mix - unless you just want a bunch of rumbling down there. From there, all you might need is mild EQ and compression to really get it shine.

to me this is the key to great bass tones from a mic (and is one of the many reasons i don't like D112's because of their scooped sound). i always find it weird when you get some young band in and, like greg said, the guitar amp is setup really sweet, the drums are reskinned and tuned beautifully, and then the bass player rocks up with his ropey amp with the bass cranked and nothing else. they then look on in shock, to the point of offence, as i wander in, take out some of the bass and put in some mids and upper mids, sling a mic in front of the speaker (along with a DI) and then hear it back in the control room where is sounds like a big, clean, cutting bass sound, at which point their frowns quickly disappear. it makes those times when you get a good bass player with a well set up amp in a real joy

for most pop/rock bass sounds i usually reference bands like Tool, Blink182 and old Greenday; all super bright, all super clear bass sounds.

in terms of straight DI'ing it depends on the kind of sound the track needs but 9 out of 10 times the instrument in on my TL audio 5001 does the trick, and if it needs it even the stock bass amp modeller in Logic 9 does a sterling job, but even the stock pre's on my presonus firestudio mobile are great as a DI.

 

[RecordingMaster]

You could probably work with what you have, it sounds usable enough. Just for the record though, the current tone (although muddier and not as distinct) sort of reminded me of the bass tone in Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band by the Beatles. Not the whole album, just the "Sgt. Peppers" tune at the beginning of the record. Just sayin'

 

[miroslav]

I've found that FET-based DIs seem to really marry up well with bass guitars...at least the ones I've used always came through well.

And yeah...I tend to just plug into one of the go-to DIs that I have, and do nothing more with the bass. During the mix, I'll only roll off a bit wherever the low end has the most boom to clean it up some, and that's about it. I also tend to go for the more fatter/thumping kind of bass, and I use my long-scale bass with flat-wounds 90% of the time. I have another with round-wound strings and slightly lighter gauge, but I only us it when I really want that brighter/popping bass sound...which is rare for the stuff I do.

Yeah, with a DI you will get more of the string/fret noises, and I've spent time editing a lot of that out of the tracks in the DAW, but now I'm just leaving it in, since I'm going back to a more all-analog recording SOP now that I have a decent 2" tape deck.
I've asked bass players what they do about it, and most have said...nothing...it's part of the bass playing, though I agree, with better technique you can cut out most of the real nasty string/fret noise...so now when I play, I am more conscious of my fingering technique because I know I will not be doing any editing at all. I'll drop 2-3 tracks on tape...and then pick out the best one and erase others.

 

[chewbacaface]

I think maybe I phrased that question wrong. I've recorded lots of bass. Usually with a 421 or an RE20 and a DI. I would say that is the "standard" as far as that goes. The tracks really aren't the problem as they both sound really good individually. In the mix they some how swell wildly in the mid range section. I need to figure out how to get it to stop interfering in the mix, so I guess I am asking what other instruments that folks might hear causing issues in the mix and what sort of blending people do between mics. I played with it last night again but it seems like the more I blend in the LDC with the hi-cut, the more it starts to sound like a toy.

@Witzendoz
Yeah, the phase was also my first thought but it isn't the issue surprisingly. I think 99% of the time this muddy sound comes from phasing issues but they are inline and I even threw a phase correcter on it just to check if I was going blind. I normally use a 421 and a dbx 160 but this project was done at a practice space and I went with what I had. I think an RE20 is pretty comparable to a 421 in some respects. I like to use direct in but it didn't sound right and the LDC just sounded a lot better in the room. That said, I think that is where some of the boominess is coming from and I like that big low end punch but I wish the mids hadn't suffered so much. Thanks for the tip though I appreciate you taking a listen.

@RecordingMaster
Oddly enough, I thought the same thing but I was thinking more about the bass on the Arcade Fire albums when I did it. I wanted that rubber band sound that has a lot of bounce and really just the tip of the string picking but it got a little thicker than I had hoped. I'll make it work even if it means just boosting at 800 riding a fader all the way through it. It's not killing the song for me by any means but it definitely has points where it is distracting... although once the vocals are on here it will be a lot less noticeable I think.

@miroslav
Yeah, in retrospect, I wish I had done both mics and a line in just to have it for comparisons. The direct wasn't sounding good but I made to classic mistake of leaving it out for no reason. I may try duplicating one of these tracks and feeding it to the Ampeg SVX plugin to try to simulate a direct line and then blend that. I hate using plugins for instrument tones but this may actually be one of the only "good" times to do it.

@Greg_L
I guess it depends on what you like. This kid hates detail bass. He doesn't want it to sound like metal bass (thin and detailed). He doesn't want it to sound like rock bass (mid range and driven), he like the sort of muted ambient bass where the note is about all you get. So, I think I have that sort of but if I don't bring a little detail to it I'm gonna drive myself crazy and I think in the long run he'll eventually grow to wish it was there. So, I'm looking at the long haul here.

Thanks,
Ryan

 

[signoiz88]

Yeah go DI. Tons of people do it. It works. I'd rather use an amp myself.

It's true. I love using a DI, but the signal will be clean and lack a good amount of character. It also contains a lot more high mids, and respectively lacks low end punch and body. It's usually a good practice to go through a DI box, that can also go out to an amp to record through the amp, and then mix the two together according to taste. Another good thing about going DI is that it allows you to re-amp it later once you can get your hands on a nice recording amp. But to mix purely a DI signal will have a hard time holding down a solid foundation for a mix.

If nothing else can be done, your idea was not a bad one. Use the HPF to emphasize the highs only from the blue mic, and that way you dont muddy up the mix from your other mic.

And its hard to go wrong with a 57, but an AKG D112, or a Sennheiser MD 421 are both bass cab beauties.

 

[RecordingMaster]

@RecordingMaster
I'll make it work even if it means just boosting at 800 riding a fader all the way through it.

Why ride the fader in 2012? Either use a limiter or this! It rides the fader for you, and a lot faster than you could with human reflex.

 

[grimtraveller]

and respectively lacks low end punch and body.

I find that if I go straight in, I get low end punch that makes my monitors beg me to stop. . But I prefer to just mic the amp although I use a variety of means.

Why ride the fader in 2012 ?

Why not ? That's like asking why use a gas cooker when you have microwaves and takeaways.

 

[chuckduffy]

A bass that sounds too bright on it's own in the room is probably just right for a clean bass in a mix - unless you just want a bunch of rumbling down there. From there, all you might need is mild EQ and compression to really get it shine.

I think you are dead on. My *absolute worst* tracked bass sounds come from when I try and get a really beefy, ballsy bass in isolation while playing. A bunch of rumbling perfectly describes 90% of my tracks.

 

[rayc]

Bass DI - SERIOUSLY the Behringer BDI21 is great, solid & very cheap. Ignore the Behringer name - it's GOOD.
Your tone is a little flabby - a blend of DI & mic'd is optimal as you'll get the definition yo9u want as well as the big bottom.
Bass is an odd one because what sound perfect in the room isn't going to sound right in the mix. My bass tracks sound ghastly when solo'd but fit the mix when dropped in.
Tweaking what you have...
-5 Dbs at 100, +4 Dbs at 200 (that's the Motown technique) and from 3 to 6 Db added at 3Khz for some definition. I do all of that with Q of 3 & it works pretty well for my bass & the type of arrangements I use.

 

[chuckduffy]

I guess it depends on what you like. This kid hates detail bass. He doesn't want it to sound like metal bass (thin and detailed). He doesn't want it to sound like rock bass (mid range and driven), he like the sort of muted ambient bass where the note is about all you get. So, I think I have that sort of but if I don't bring a little detail to it I'm gonna drive myself crazy and I think in the long run he'll eventually grow to wish it was there. So, I'm looking at the long haul here.

Oh - that bass. The reason you can't get that bass by working on the bass alone is because I'm pretty sure it is the combination of the kick, the bass and finger and palm muting.