Need advice on outboard gear purchase

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LarryF

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Hi, I'm interested in opinions from anyone on an upcoming purchase I want to make. I use MOTU DP3 with a MOTU 828, MOTU MidiExpressXT, Apple G4 dual 1 gig, and Mackie Control (the "MOTU Studio" concept, I guess). I've been using Waves Native Gold for effects. My keyboards and modules include Triton Studio 88, Yamaha P200, Roland XV3080, Kurzweil PC2R, and a Triton Rack. I compose smooth jazz, some funk, and some rock - no hip hop, R&B, techno, dance, etc.

I'm pretty happy with Waves but I am interested in taking my sound to the next level by adding one serious pro-level processor to the studio. What I really want is the full, smooth, rich sound that I hear on CDs - particularly smooth jazz CDs - but can't quite get from my own work. I'm guessing a channel strip with tube amp might be the answer, or maybe a great pre amp with EQ. But I'm not sure. Importantly, I do very little acoustic/mic work - this is intended 95 % for conditioning the sound of stereo keyboards and synths, so anything I buy must at a minimum handle stereo instrument input and, in an ideal world, be designed from the ground up for stereo instrument sound conditioning.

My budget is $1,500 to $2,500 but I would bump that up to $3,000 if there was a perfect piece of gear out there that really fit my needs. I've been reading up on offerings from Avalon, Drawmer, etc. but now I'm really looking to get beyond the brochures and hear from people who know the gear. I would appreciate any ideas or guidance you may have.

Thank you!
Larry F
 
I'd say in your price range, the sky is almost the limit. If I were you I'd get a Langevin Dual Vocal Combo. It's made by Manley and it's only $1600 from Mercenary.

http://www.mercenary.com/landualvocco.html

I haven't used it, but I've only heard good things about it, and not just from salesmen.

BTW, no one piece of gear will get you a pro sound in and of itself.

Another thing: you didn't mention what mics you have. If you don't have a world class mic, you have no business spending $3000 on a preamp, IMHO. I would think about getting a Soundelux U99 for that price.
 
Welcome aboard Larry.

Hey I'm on a MAC too w/ DP, 1224, 2408 mkii, pretty scarce around here.
So are you trying to "warm" sorry to use the word (flame suit on) up the keys/synths? I ask this because you mentioned the Drawmer. It may help for rock, but not sure for smooth jazz.

What type artists sound are you striving for? I lack outboard processors myself, well I do have some cheapies (compressor), and Lexi reverbs. Nothing comendable as far as limiters, compressors and the like. I hear good things about the Summit stuff.
Sorry its not much help.

Tony
 
Are you wanting a processor or a preamp? If you are mainly dealing with keyboards then I would get some kick ass EQ's, effects and compressors. An expensive preamp would give you pretty limited bang for the buck with electronic instruments.

I would look at new/used Lexicon, TC Electronics, Eventide, Empirical Labs. The all have good stuff that will give you a high dollar sound.
 
more info

this is a great board - I appreciate everyone's insights. What a great resource this board is for so many topics, seriously. Been reading it non-stop for 2 days!

Responding to the questions from others, what I'm trying to do is "warm" up the digital/harsh sound from my MIDI instruments. I'm looking for a Marcus Miller kind of mix and sound - punchy but very smooth and polished. I am not too interested in the mic side of things, I'm mainly concerned about getting my synths to sound lush - or lusher than they sound on their own. Waves Gold gets me part of the way there but my sound still isn't smooth - it's just too damn digital, hard to explain. No matter how many layers of smooth tracks I lay down and no matter how much native processing I apply to it, it just sounds cold. So I'm interested in getting a high-end processor to help with that. I may look at the UAD-1 PCI card if I don't come up with any outboard gear ideas worth investing in.
 
Maybe I'm missing the mark here, and I don't mean to sound glib, but rather than trying to warm up a cold sound, try getting warm sounds to begin with that won't need any processing. A high-quality sample library, or some of the higher quality VSTi's might be worth researching and checking out.

Chris
 
UAD-1 has some issues. check unicornation.com's BBS
And can you say " latency" especially with softsynths. If you can handle the limitations, it may be an option.

But as Chris says .. rather than trying to warm up a cold sound, try getting warm sounds to begin with that won't need any processing... the UAD-1 could be moot.
I'm guessing you are mixing in the box? realtime BTD sound alot better than the regular BTD. Even going outboard sounds "warmer".

T
 
LarryF

My first advice is to not use Midi. Record real instruments through some nice preamps straight into the hard disk. If that's not an option, why not taking the Midi instruments out of the computer and re-record them....the preamp again...could be a quality console. You can find these from around I guess 1k today. I found my D&R Dayner 32ch for just a little more than this, in Sweden though.

My advice is to find some info about consoles and the "colored transformer sound" . Then, find out what Marcus Miller actually used and try to get a similar.

I've just bought an old (built 1968) 8-channel preamp/eq with Spectrasonics modules and I've got what I believe you're after.

Hans,
www.hagen.nu
 
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If you want to avoid the "vanilla" offerings presented by many of the "box" stores, and you really want to get to the good stuff, I suggest pieces from Great River (NV), Old School Audio (MP1-C, MP1-L), and Phoenix Audio UK (DRS). These companies offer preamps that can provide character and coloration to your audio without the sacrifice of a higher fidelity recording, which I feel is necessary to recordings for rock. Jazz could go either way, completely colorless or not. Either way, it should be a great design with plenty of headroom, bandwidth and low noise. It all starts in the front end of the recording (musician, room, mic, preamp, ADC), the better the path closer to the source, the better your recordings will be. Good Luck.

Nathan Eldred
atlasproaudio.com
 
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Have you tried micing the synth sounds coming out of studio monitors,in a decent sounding room, with a pair of condenser mics to add some natural ambience?
 
NathanEldred said:
If you want to avoid the "vanilla" offerings presented by many of the "box" stores, and you really want to get to the good stuff, I suggest pieces from Great River (NV), Old School Audio (MP1-C, MP1-L), and Phoenix Audio UK (DRS). These companies offer preamps that can provide character and coloration to your audio without the sacrifice of a higher fidelity recording, which I feel is necessary to recordings for rock.
Click to expand...

Dude, the guys' recording with Midi. :D

I can't believe what I'm reading.

What happened? How the hell have we reduced ourselves to people asking about mic pres to help tame the digital harshness of their midi recordings . . .

. . . only to have a very well-respected pro audio dealer actually answer his question seriously ? ? ?


It's only 12:10 Chicago time, but I need a drink.

I can't believe I might have to go to Harmony Central now for some intelligent discussion. :D
 
yea, this whole thread scares me.

for starters the idea of smooth jazz and funk with no/little acoustic instruments, it gives me the shivers.

my advice is avoid all samples and all waveform synths and all VSTi's.

use your money for a rhodes piano, and a nice bass guitar, and so on...
 
chessrock said:
Dude, the guys' recording with Midi. :D

I can't believe what I'm reading.

What happened? How the hell have we reduced ourselves to people asking about mic pres to help tame the digital harshness of their midi recordings . . .

. . . only to have a very well-respected pro audio dealer actually answer his question seriously ? ? ?


It's only 12:10 Chicago time, but I need a drink.

I can't believe I might have to go to Harmony Central now for some intelligent discussion. :D
Click to expand...


Not sure where that is coming from Chessrock, we do this all the time in the studio. The original poster said that he was sending his audio from synths.

This is what the original poster said, did I misinterpret?

this is intended 95 % for conditioning the sound of stereo keyboards and synths, so anything I buy must at a minimum handle stereo instrument input and, in an ideal world, be designed from the ground up for stereo instrument sound conditioning.
Click to expand...


If it's all internal stuff (which it doesn't appear to be), the only way to color the sound with outboard is to go D/A then A/D back into the computer. For something like this specifically I would recommend a FATSO or Distressor. Or he could stay digital and use a Crane Song HEDD. He could use a plugin, but asked about outboard. The preamps that I recommended have transformer inputs and/or outputs which should add some color to the signal. Also, he said that he does rock and smooth jazz. If he ever has any vocal or guitar applications a preamp (or at a minimum a DI input for something like a POD) is going to be a necessary tool. There is a reason behind the madness.

Since he is going to output the sound from a standalone instrument level output, then a higher quality transformer coupled DI, or preamp, with DI built in will serve two purposes, better quality on the input and addition of some character into his sound. Chessrock, of course using original instruments (i.e. analog synths, real guitars and basses, Rhodes, etc) are going to sound better. But it looks like he's using decent keyboards (Kurzweil, Korg), were not talking about a cheap Casio here (if it was a Casio and a Fostex 4 track I would have skipped it, the first step solution would be obvious here). But the guy has professional keys and a G4, basically respected gear with a considerable investment with a legitimate question and concern. Sans getting the real deal, a higher quality recording input is the best solution IMO.

Nathan Eldred
atlasproaudio.com
 
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atlas said:
Not sure where that is coming from Chessrock, we do this all the time in the studio. The original poster said that he was sending his audio from synths.

This is what the original poster said, did I misinterpret?
Click to expand...


Did I misinterperate the part where he said:

Responding to the questions from others, what I'm trying to do is "warm" up the digital/harsh sound from my MIDI instruments.
Click to expand...
 
Are you talking about the sound of your tracks, or the performance of your tracks? Two different things. I might be wrong, but in MIDI (which I use all the time) the performance can sound harsh. Depends on the MIDI programming. Like a piano will not sound as real and "smooth" as a real player because MIDI does not have as much "performance" information as a real player. I am talking about "performance feeling". I have a Kurzweil PC2-r and can say that the sounds are warm and lifelike. I love it. But with a bad MIDI track, the sounds can sound harsh and "edgy". MIDI has no prefomance feeling. Is this what you are looking for?
 
UUmmm......wouldn't contacting a Mastering Engineer be the right answer here? Obviously it all starts with tracking, but assuming you have a good source and mix, you're going to need to have your stuff professionally mastered to get that "polished" sound that you are looking for that you hear on your CDs.
 
Chessrock wrote:

Did I misinterperate the part where he said:

:
Responding to the questions from others, what I'm trying to do is "warm" up the digital/harsh sound from my MIDI instruments.
Click to expand...

I'm not a big MIDI guy, I record real instruments. But from what I understand MIDI to be, it in itself does not actually produce the sounds themselves, it only produces a "map" to tell the sounds (samples) where to play. If he has a sample that already sounds great (like from an expensive keyboard in this case), the source in general should be good already, and as I said it would benefit from a quality front end, specifically as in this case he is outputting from an instrument level into a high impedance direct input. So to say that all MIDI in general is harsh and digital sounding is too general of a statement. If someone samples a 9 foot steinway with DPA's, Millennia preamps, and a pristine ADC to 24 bits I would expect it to sound excellent. Am I wrong about the way MIDI works though?

Nathan Eldred
atlasproaudio.com
 
atlas,
"So to say that all MIDI in general is harsh and digital sounding is too general of a statement"

You're right here. Midi only records keys on a keyboard as good "as possible". I think it's great for songwriting, but I would never use it on a recording.

Hans
 
I didn't realize I was opening up an existential debate over the MIDI-driven decline of western music when I started this thread. It sounds like I drove one person here to an afternoon drinking binge from my wacky post asking for advice on outboard gear for a MIDI composing studio!!! All I can say is, if I caused a drinking binge, then Avalon must've driven that person to heroin, because the venerable VT747SP is specifically marketed as a conditioning tool to use on stereo keyboards in a DAW setup.

But anyway, it isn't my intent to start a war or get anyone a DWI; I'm really just looking to buy some cool gear and I understand a lot of people are anti-MIDI, so Peace. However, here's my view for what it's worth. First, if you're a composer and you want to produce a decent demo product that'll eventually go to live musicians, you still want to produce a quality sound that you can be proud of, and conditioning gear is part of that, even if the "instruments" you record are cheesy compressed samples from a sound module. Second, keyboard players must condition their sound in the recording process, and their sound comes from samples or synths, not acoustic instruments (unless piano). And finally, there are a lot of mediocre musicians out there, and I'll be damned if I haven't heard some pros extract sound quality out of XVs and Tritons and especially PC2Rs and K2600s that will positively blow away guys with 10 grand worth of mics and pres who can't play or arrange their music. To each his own - I think MIDI studios are cool and I built one, but MIDI music is thin and harsh, and needs some sort of polishing, and that's why it is sensible to look at outboard gear for MIDI modules and keyboards.
 
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