Neck Relief Question

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TelePaul

TelePaul

J to the R O C
So my action is high on my new telecaster...but adjusting the truss rod clockwise causes a buzz....does this mean there's too much back bow?
 
TelePaul said:
So my action is high on my new telecaster...but adjusting the truss rod clockwise causes a buzz....does this mean there's too much back bow?
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Almost certainly. Where does it buzz? All the way up the neck? Just in a few places? Have you attempted to measure the relief at the point at which the neck plays without buzzing? and then again as it starts to buzz. I wouldn't recommend playing with the truss rod until you are sure what the relief is as it was to start. Let us know what the buzzing symptoms are we'll take it from there.
 
muttley600 said:
Almost certainly. Where does it buzz? All the way up the neck? Just in a few places? Have you attempted to measure the relief at the point at which the neck plays without buzzing? and then again as it starts to buzz. I wouldn't recommend playing with the truss rod until you are sure what the relief is as it was to start. Let us know what the buzzing symptoms are we'll take it from there.
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Oh 32-20 blues knows all the details. He just told me that MIGHT be the issue, I'll have him post the details thanks Muttley.
 
Also, I wouldn't go straight to the truss rod just because the action is high. In fact, high action wouldn't cause me to even think about the truss rod most of the time. Truss rod adjustment would be something I'd only do if I sighted down the neck and it obviously needed it. Otherwise high action is adjusted at the bridge and the nut.
 
muttley600 said:
Almost certainly. Where does it buzz? All the way up the neck? Just in a few places? Have you attempted to measure the relief at the point at which the neck plays without buzzing? and then again as it starts to buzz. I wouldn't recommend playing with the truss rod until you are sure what the relief is as it was to start. Let us know what the buzzing symptoms are we'll take it from there.
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Hey muttley, good to talk to you.

The action was uncomfortably high from the shop. I measured the relief as per the Fender site, and there was too much. I turned the truss rod slightly less than a quarter turn clockwise, and measured the relief again. It was fine, but the action was still high.

Here's where the fun starts: I adjusted the height of the saddles, but before the strings were low enough to play comfortably, they buzz.

Strangely, they buzz from the fifth fret to the eighth, on the low E and A strings. There is no buzz anywhere else on the neck. This is why I presumed it was a backbow in the neck.
 
Lt. Bob said:
Also, I wouldn't go straight to the truss rod just because the action is high. In fact, high action wouldn't cause me to even think about the truss rod most of the time. Truss rod adjustment would be something I'd only do if I sighted down the neck and it obviously needed it. Otherwise high action is adjusted at the bridge and the nut.
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Thanks Bob, you're right. I checked the relief first the way I always do (capo on the first fret, fret further up the neck and take a measurement halfway between the two).

I'm TelePaul's brother, btw, and I was doing this as a favour for him.
 
Lt. Bob said:
In fact, high action wouldn't cause me to even think about the truss rod most of the time. Truss rod adjustment would be something I'd only do if I sighted down the neck and it obviously needed it. Otherwise high action is adjusted at the bridge and the nut.
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OK, Lets look at the facts.

The action is high (apparently).
It plays without buzzing with the shop setup.
Tweak the truss rod and you get buzzing with a correct neck relief.

Tweaking the saddle and nut is not going to help here. In fact the whole point of checking neck relief is to take the nut and saddle out of the equation from a setup point of view. In reality all three need to be done at the same time. You can't get it to play right unless the nut saddle and relief are correct for the strings, string length etc. are right.

The first thing to do here is asses the neck relief. The way to do this is as 30-20 suggests. I do it by holding around the third fret not the first but thats not the point. The point is that the neck relief needs to be right before you start to look at the hight of the saddles and nut. 30-20 says he has done this. From previous threads I believe him capable of doing this. Yes the saddle and nut needs to be right but neck relief first.....The amount of relief is down to several things. String gauge, string length and how hard you play being the major consideration. Its actually possible to get a buzz free and low action on a perfectly flat relief, if you don't believe me ask Benedetto, Moll et al. The normal cause of buzzing on a well set neck relief is a poor fret dress. I would guess that would be where to look next. Set the neck relief as flat as you can and with a straight edge look to see if the frets are well seated and level. If they are raise the action until it stops buzzing. If you want a lower action introduce some relief.

I'm a bit tired right now! been in the shop hogging out wood for too many hours so apologies for being curt. I'll be in a better mood in the morning.

In the meantime check how level the fret dressing is.

Later guys..
 
muttley600 said:
OK, Lets look at the facts.

The action is high (apparently).
It plays without buzzing with the shop setup.
Tweak the truss rod and you get buzzing with a correct neck relief.

Tweaking the saddle and nut is not going to help here. In fact the whole point of checking neck relief is to take the nut and saddle out of the equation from a setup point of view. In reality all three need to be done at the same time. You can't get it to play right unless the nut saddle and relief are correct for the strings, string length etc. are right.

The first thing to do here is asses the neck relief. The way to do this is as 30-20 suggests. I do it by holding around the third fret not the first but thats not the point. The point is that the neck relief needs to be right before you start to look at the hight of the saddles and nut. 30-20 says he has done this. From previous threads I believe him capable of doing this. Yes the saddle and nut needs to be right but neck relief first.....The amount of relief is down to several things. String gauge, string length and how hard you play being the major consideration. Its actually possible to get a buzz free and low action on a perfectly flat relief, if you don't believe me ask Benedetto, Moll et al. The normal cause of buzzing on a well set neck relief is a poor fret dress. I would guess that would be where to look next. Set the neck relief as flat as you can and with a straight edge look to see if the frets are well seated and level. If they are raise the action until it stops buzzing. If you want a lower action introduce some relief.

I'm a bit tired right now! been in the shop hogging out wood for too many hours so apologies for being curt. I'll be in a better mood in the morning.

In the meantime check how level the fret dressing is.

Later guys..
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Thanks Muttley. High frets is what I was thinking. Going to get the straight edge from the workshop in the morning, and spend a couple of hours on this. If that doesn't solve things, well then the guitar is going in for a pro set-up.
 
Good luck, and let us know what you find.

I assume this guitar is not long out of the shop? Has the action always been a little stiff?

A few tips for when you give it the once over.

Ignore the nut. You are thinking right when you wack a capo on it.
Get the neck a straight as you can when you look for high/ low frets.
Let your truss rod adjustments settle for a while (an hour or so in our climate is fine).
Check with both a long straight edge and also with small straight edges looking for rocking and gaps. Narrow the problem down bit by bit.
ignore intonation until you have the action as you want it.

I'm sure you know some of this stuff but it dosen't hurt to be reminded;)
When you have found the culprit you can decide how to deal with it.

Happy hunting.
 
muttley600 said:
Good luck, and let us know what you find.

I assume this guitar is not long out of the shop? Has the action always been a little stiff?

A few tips for when you give it the once over.

Ignore the nut. You are thinking right when you wack a capo on it.
Get the neck a straight as you can when you look for high/ low frets.
Let your truss rod adjustments settle for a while (an hour or so in our climate is fine).
Check with both a long straight edge and also with small straight edges looking for rocking and gaps. Narrow the problem down bit by bit.
ignore intonation until you have the action as you want it.

I'm sure you know some of this stuff but it dosen't hurt to be reminded;)
When you have found the culprit you can decide how to deal with it.

Happy hunting.
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Thanks again for taking the time to help me on this one, I really appreciate it.

I know some of this stuff, but the reminders definitely help.

I haven't even thought about intonation yet.

The guitar is about two weeks out of the shop. The action has always been on the high side, but that didn't really bother my brother at the time, because he was recording some slide parts for a few blues tunes. A couple of days ago, he came to me with it saying he thought it was too high for his tastes. I agreed with him on this one - I certainly can't play the thing comfortably. I only got around to looking at it this evening.

I'll keep you posted about any progress I make. If the worst comes to the worst, TelePaul has to pay for a set-up. No big deal, but I'm hoping to get it sorted.
 
Sorry meant to post the link to Fenders guide to setting neck relief for dummies where it says
First, check your tuning. Affix a capo at the first fret and depress the sixth string at the last fret. With a feeler gauge, check the gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the 8th fret—see the spec chart below for the proper gap.
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.

I use third fret on most fenders because the rod terminates under the third fret on some and the first on others. Depends on model and year but it matters not really.



Whoops wrong thread. Still I've bumped the two together:o
 
If your action is high, lower your saddles. Chances are, you don't need to mess with your truss at all. The truss rod is for keeping neck alignment, not adjusting action, unless it's totally out of wack.
 
Guitarer said:
If your action is high, lower your saddles. Chances are, you don't need to mess with your truss at all. The truss rod is for keeping neck alignment, not adjusting action, unless it's totally out of wack.
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I think you ought to read the whole thread, then you can explain to me how lowering the saddles will stop string buzz anywhere on the fret board.
 
muttley600 said:
I think you ought to read the whole thread, then you can explain to me how lowering the saddles will stop string buzz anywhere on the fret board.
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Damn, I hate reading :(...

Pick up the body, and stare straight down from the strap button to the headstock, you can tell if the neck is straight that way. You shouldn't just adjust by instructions, because temperature and other conditions will affect your neck's alignment. It's like a carbeurator, you can start by adjusting it to factory recommendations, but from there you have to continue to adjust it to what's appropriate for the conditions.
 
Guitarer said:
Damn, I hate reading :(...

Pick up the body, and stare straight down from the strap button to the headstock, you can tell if the neck is straight that way. You shouldn't just adjust by instructions, because temperature and other conditions will affect your neck's alignment. It's like a carbeurator, you can start by adjusting it to factory recommendations, but from there you have to continue to adjust it to what's appropriate for the conditions.
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Rubbish. You cannot adjust a neck correctly by just sighting down the neck. At least I can't and I've setup literally thousands of guitars. Don't know much about carburetors but maybe I can sight down the jets to see if they are clean and clear:confused: I'll leave that to an auto technician to decide.

Now can you explain how lowering the saddles is going to get rid of fret buzz especially when the OP said that doing so introduces it.
 
Guitarer said:
Damn, I hate reading :(...

Pick up the body, and stare straight down from the strap button to the headstock, you can tell if the neck is straight that way. You shouldn't just adjust by instructions, because temperature and other conditions will affect your neck's alignment. It's like a carbeurator, you can start by adjusting it to factory recommendations, but from there you have to continue to adjust it to what's appropriate for the conditions.
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Guitarer, no offense intended, but I think you are out of your league here. I'd leave well enough alone if I were you.

Just a little advice from an older hand! :)
 
Zaphod B said:
Guitarer, no offense intended, but I think you are out of your league here. I'd leave well enough alone if I were you.

Just a little advice from an older hand! :)
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Oh Zaphod you spoil sport... wouldn't have been so curt but he obviously didn't read the thread in the first place. If he had I would have taken the time to explain why he was wrong.;)
 
muttley600 said:
Oh Zaphod you spoil sport... wouldn't have been so curt but he obviously didn't read the thread in the first place. If he had I would have taken the time to explain why he was wrong.;)
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The young grasshopper can learn much, if he will take the time to read. :)
 
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