my latest session

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ad0lescnts

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i started helping engineer a band today... the bassist is also an engineer that does a lot of studio work at some big studio.

we got to borrow some aweeesome stuff. neve n72's, telefunken pres (i forget what model), soundeluxe mics (u99 and some other LDC's) and a lot of other cool equipment...

so we're setting up the mics on the kit and the bassist INSISTED we use the 57 as the top snare mic. It wasnt giving off the sound we wanted so i suggested we put the senn. 421 on it. he said "no" so he fooled with it and it wasnt good still, so i suggested it againand he freaked out this time.. he's like "no! that's not right, that's not what it's for.. we'd be the first to ever do something like that 57 is good!" so i lost that battle... i really wish we coulda done it..

then later this other engineer guy who thinks he's the shit and has a lot of equipment and clients etc. came by. i was overhearing him talk to another guy "yeahh.... i dont even use overheads anymore" i kinda chuckled

yeah so i dont really know what the point of this thread is except to let out my frustrations...

T
 
It's awesome that you gained further experience in the craft (not to mention with high end gear) AND a bummer there was some friction, but that too may prove to be further experience as well...
Hopefully some guys here that have been or are in situations like you've had can offer a bit of advice on the art of people... It might make for some interesting helpful reading.


:)
 
ad0lescnts said:
so i suggested it again
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You are lucky, if an assistant of mine did this, he would be fired, period. Don't get me wrong, what you were suggesting may have worked, but once you have been told once, that is it. You were showing up the engineer in front of his client, which is NOT acceptable. Even if this was not your intent, it is what you were doing. Just because he was making a mistake doesn't mean you should be developing bad habits.

You are there to make the engineer look good, and to do what he asks you to do. You are responsible for taking all of the tracking notes (this is the single most important task for an assistant), setting up the room according to the engineers floor plan, and doing all of the little runner tasks he needs done. If the engineer asks for your opinion, give it, but NEVER try to push your ideas.

You are not there for your expertise. I don't care if you know more than the moron behind the board, you are there to make him look like less of a moron, and showing him up in front of the band or producer will do nothing but piss him off.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
i was behind the board and we were using mostly my equipment except for the mics the bassist had borrowed. and he cant really look bad in front of his clients since he is the client... hes the bassist in the band that was being recorded...

plus we were at my house. it'd be kind of weird for him to kick me out of my own house.

i know what you mean though and i'll keep it in mind in case i might be an intern at a real studio or have the opportunity to do something like it.

T
 
Just making a point. Remember, even if this is just a hobby, it is work. Work in a professional manner, and you can get professional results. If you don't work professionally, you won't get professional results.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I'm not so sure your actions were incorrect. As I understand it, this was done at your house, using your recording gear. The band being record brough some better mics and other stuff, and a know-it-all bass player.

One question is whether $ are involved between band and you, and what agreement was reached on who is in charge before things began.

It kind of sounds like you're the engineer and they are the customer/band. One usually wants to cater to the customer, but when their ideas fail (which it sounds like they did), it's your job to suggest other approaches that might work.

At some point you have to decide how to handle such conflicts on a case by case basis. If it's clear that their approach is going to yield a bad overall result, and you feel they'll eventually figure this out, then who are they going to blame.

If you think they will blame you, then you need to decide whether you need that kind of business and clients. If they accept the responsibility that their know-it-all bass player messed up, that's different.

Ed
 
Perhaps if you had the tracks and preamps available you could have thrown in your other mic along side "just for reference" and later played it back for the Bass player.
It could have been a learning experiance for him as well.

I know all studio owners / engineers at some time get those people in that feel they know better, and it can be frustrating. Sometimes they actually do have a foundation for what they want (a specific sound) sometimes it is just the latest hype. Sometimes I try to accomodate their requests while simultaneously accomodating mine. If I cant, and I really know beyond a shadow of a doubt there request won't work, I offer to them to try my way first, If it doesn't work I'll re-record it for free.

You can usually tell who has a legitimate request or knowlege.
But satisfying the customer it ultimately your goal if you want them back. Sometimes letting them flounder for while with their choices builds a trust in you that you are there for them. Perhaps they will yield to your expertise the next time.


Tom
 
Re: Re: my latest session

Light said:
You are lucky, if an assistant of mine did this, he would be fired, period. Don't get me wrong, what you were suggesting may have worked, but once you have been told once, that is it. You were showing up the engineer in front of his client, which is NOT acceptable. Even if this was not your intent, it is what you were doing. Just because he was making a mistake doesn't mean you should be developing bad habits.
Click to expand...
So what you're saying is that all Engineers are assholes? A good suggestion is a good suggestion no matter what, and should be tried. If it works, then GREAT! If it doesen't, then so what?

And besides. If I make a suggestion, and you say "no" I would very much like to be explained why not. Just saying "no" isn't good enough and shows poor people skills. If you know more than me, I would like to learn something, and I wouldn't be making the same mistake twice. :)

If you know better, then explain why. If you don't know, then shut up and say "let's try it".

You don't win if you don't try! :)
 
Actually, it would appear that the bassist was playing "producer" in this session. All fine and good.

Light made some very good points based on that. If I suggest to a "producer" that we try something and they say flat out "no!", I don't suggest that again, unless he ask's what I suggest. In this case, this bassist might have been ahead of the game. Possibly, he has tracked this snare drum before with a 57 with pleasing results, and on this day, the snare needed to be tuned differently. Who know's. But when I am paid by the hour to only engineer, I will let the "producer" make all the calls he wants. If he insist's on a certain mic, even though I know it isn't working, it is his call to spend more time to realize that, not mine, and in keeping good relations, I am going to keep my mouth shut until asked. Simple as that.

It is natural to feel frustrated by this. I often do. But it is my job to joyfully go about the day and do my job and keep things cool with the artist and producer. When I keep that in mind, the artist is happy, the producer is happy, and I am happy.

As engineer, you are there to be of "service". Play it cool and safe, and NEVER suggest that the artist or producer doesn't know their shit. That is a great way to lose clients. Make em' feel good and work hard. Nobody will be blaming you for their mistakes later.

Ed
 
sonusman said:
Light made some very good points based on that. If I suggest to a "producer" that we try something and they say flat out "no!", I don't suggest that again, unless he ask's what I suggest. In this case, this bassist might have been ahead of the game. Possibly, he has tracked this snare drum before with a 57 with pleasing results, and on this day, the snare needed to be tuned differently. Who know's. But when I am paid by the hour to only engineer, I will let the "producer" make all the calls he wants. If he insist's on a certain mic, even though I know it isn't working, it is his call to spend more time to realize that, not mine, and in keeping good relations, I am going to keep my mouth shut until asked. Simple as that.
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Good point! :) But do you really like to work with a producer like that? Woudln't you rather be able to tell him your opinion and save time instead of recording over and over and letting the producer wonder "what's wrong with the sound now"?

I wrote too soon, sorry. I just got annoyed by the "I'm the boss and I'm always right"-attitude that Light presented. I just hate people who can't take a good suggestion unless they make it themself. I don't like to work with people like that, and therefore choose not to. I've walked away from 3 three jobs/projects this year only because the project-leader was an asshole (which of course made my boss rather annoyed :D).

All in all, I think that people are better off talking politely to each other. Suggestions can be made, and people learn aswell. You can even see people smile and enjoying their work. :)
 
moskus said:
Good point! :) But do you really like to work with a producer like that? Woudln't you rather be able to tell him your opinion and save time instead of recording over and over and letting the producer wonder "what's wrong with the sound now"?
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When you do this for hire, and somewhat depend on that income, you wind up working in a lot of situations that are not totally to your liking. I know of no other job that is any different eh? In this case, it is far more important to keep a good relationship going than to impose my "ideas". Some guys will be very open to your ideas and try them. Others will not be. I have to be willing accept what others want when they pay me to work for them. That is the bottom line. If I want to continue to work, I have to find ways to make it good for me too. But ultimately, I have to make it good for the person calling the shots.

Ed
 
There is an old line about a Doctor who has himself as a client has a fool for a patient.

There are some similar aspects here. There are times when you need to decide which side of the window you want to be on, and then stay there... Kind of sounds like the bass player might have this issue trying to "produce" and play.

Ed
 
Next time put on a pair of cans and start fiddling with the 57. Say "Yep, I think it's busted" and grab the sennheiser ;)

Anytime a client makes stupid equipment suggestions is a good time for stuff to 'break'. As long as you give them a good sound in the end they are usually happy.
 
Re: Re: Re: my latest session

moskus said:
And besides. If I make a suggestion, and you say "no" I would very much like to be explained why not. Just saying "no" isn't good enough and shows poor people skills. If you know more than me, I would like to learn something, and I wouldn't be making the same mistake twice. :)
Click to expand...


Not when my client is paying by the hour. I don't have time to explain it to you, sorry. Ask me about it when you take me out for drinks after the session.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
When I have bassists following me around, telling me how to set up the drum mics . . . I refer him to my "brand new" policy:

Only one instrument at a time will be soundchecked. Everyone (who is not soundchecking) is kindly asked to wait in the next room until it is their turn to soundcheck.

Fuck that guy. If I don't churn out a final product that everyone is happy with . . . if at the end of the project, everyone doesn't agree "yea, that sounds great" . . . then I'm not going to get their business again, nor am I going to get any referals.

That said, it's my arse that's on the line, so as far as I'm concerend, I have to make sure I do what it takes to make it sound good. This involves being able to concentrate on what I'm doing while setting up and soundchecking . . . and if some bassist is following me around, telling me how to do my job because maybe he's read an issue of tapeop or has a portastudio or something . . . I'm going to be distracted, and tempted to punch him in the face.
 
If you are getting paid by the hour, then just make the point clear that it would be more timely to use the senn. If this bass player has the wallet for the job and insists that you still use the 57, then just do so knowing it will take more time and more money in your pocket. Now.. what's wrong with top micing the snare with a 57?
 
it just didn't sound good in that certain situation. If you heard it you'd think "i KNOW i can make this sound better" it's ok we're gonna work on it later

T
 
Bottom line is, he insisted on keeping that mic, and he kept it there, so he was the producer, regardless of gear ownership and location. Arguing with him just makes him ultimately more annoyed with you, and you more annoyed with the session. If you had let it go right away, you wouldn't even have remembered it as the one standout thing in the session. Obviously now you harbor some resentment, and that's too bad, because this is supposed to be fun, when you're not getting paid. Just try to make the mix decent, and don't work with him anymore if you can help it--or resign yourself to using a 57 on the snare (thousands of engineers have done all right with that choice, BTW).
 
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