My kick is obscured by the bass guitar. HELP!!

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Chazfest

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Hi,
I'm wondering if anyone can give me some pointers concerning the seperation of the kick drum and the bass guitar tracks.
I've read several posts on many a forum relating to this query, and it seems fairly common place:

Basically, my current project consists of 8 individual tracks of drums, 1 of the bass (using the multi-take feature in Logic 8) and 2 of the guitar (same again).

I've mixed, EQ'd and compressed the drums to a point that I'm really happy with them. On thier own they sound kick ass (imo), they have the low end in the kick and toms, and the crisp snare that we wanted (as a band) etc.
However, the second I bring the bass guitar back into the equation, it all goes to s*%#!
I've gone down the route of soloing the kick and the bass guitar, and manually adjusting each of the compressors and EQ's next to each other, whilst comparing the freq's etc to try and avoid the current crossover.

So far, I've had little luck.
Any advice?
Should I go down the route of Sidechain Compression? Or is this wrong path for an experimental heavy metal/blues Trio setup?

I've been really inspired by the Alice in Chains kick drum sound amongst others, a prime example is below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFWkPVHKwCY
The kick drum surrounds the entire mix, it's huge, perhaps a little too huge, but none-the-less, it's there, and so is the bass.
Perhaps this is a little high to be aiming whilst recording on relitively modest equipment, but still, this is the general direction we want our mix to move in (drum wise at least).

Thanks in advance!!
Chaz
 
The problem with saying "On its own it kicks arse" is being its exactly that! :) It will take up a large portion of the frequency spectrum if there is nothing to compete with.

You need to EQ it with the bass going at the same time. Bump up the 'click' (2-4kHz) to make it a bit more audible. Apart from that side chain compression will help, and simply making the thing louder then the bass guitar on the faders.
 
Re:

Right, I was afraid of this :(
So I'm looking at setting a loop region and mixing/eq'ing the kick & bass whilst they're both playing?
If it comes to sidechain compression, I'll have to look up some more tutorials, cos so far, I'm not completely sure of how to use is and tweak accurately etc.

Also, I've currently got the kick straight down the middle, snare slightly (10%) to the left, symbols and toms panned roughly 20-30% either side, guitars 25% either side and bass guitar panned slightly (10%) to the left.
My 'logic' behind the panning was to seperate the frequencies slightly and give them more room to be heard in the final mix/master. Does this logic apply when mixing the bass guitar? Or am I actually making my life more difficult by doing this?

Sorry for the bombardment of noobie questions!!
I'll get there. I have determination! That's what you need to be an audio engineer right? Or was that a record breaker?
:D
 
Chazfest said:
I'll get there. I have determination! That's what you need to be an audio engineer right? Or was that a record breaker?
:D
Click to expand...

You can use the terms interchangably, both require physical and mental stamina :eek:

Chazfest said:
So I'm looking at setting a loop region and mixing/eq'ing the kick & bass whilst they're both playing?
If it comes to sidechain compression, I'll have to look up some more tutorials, cos so far, I'm not completely sure of how to use is and tweak accurately etc.
Click to expand...

If I were mixing your song, I would concentrate on getting the "wall of sound" dialled in. This is the Kick, Bass, Guitars and Cymbols all playing on the same beat, which gives you that rock and roll 'Blast'. Start with the Kick, get it thudding nicely, then bring in the bass guitar. The bass should fill in the sustain from the Kicks percussive hit. For example, you should hear the 'click' and thud from the kick drum, but the bass gives it a tone.
Then bring the guitars in. They should sit on top of the bass guitar, and add lots of mid-range. Try and make them nice and clear and not too muddy, its always a temptation to add more lows to make it meaty, but this will muddy up the sound and make it hard to hear the bass.
Cymbols go on top to give it some high end punch. Mix till you think it sounds good. Try not to mix from the LED displays and volume meters, use your ears. if you can't hear the kick, turn it up, don't jump instantly for the EQ! :)

Chazfest said:
Also, I've currently got the kick straight down the middle, snare slightly (10%) to the left, symbols and toms panned roughly 20-30% either side, guitars 25% either side and bass guitar panned slightly (10%) to the left.
My 'logic' behind the panning was to seperate the frequencies slightly and give them more room to be heard in the final mix/master. Does this logic apply when mixing the bass guitar? Or am I actually making my life more difficult by doing this?
Click to expand...

Panning gives it all a bit of space, I would keep kick and bass down the middle, and the rest you seem to have sorted. Maybe move the guitars to 50% L and Right.

Posting the track in the mp3 clinic would be a good idea once you have a basic mix down.
 
Awesome,
Thanks for all the above pointers Waffleness, and for the interest Greg.
I'm at work at present so I'll post the current bounce in mp3 format tonight around 6pm.
Where do I post it to? The MP3 clinic? Where's that? Or should I just FTP it and post the hyperlink?

I'll look forward to hearing your comments and advice.
 
Chazfest said:
Awesome,
Thanks for all the above pointers Waffleness, and for the interest Greg.
I'm at work at present so I'll post the current bounce in mp3 format tonight around 6pm.
Where do I post it to? The MP3 clinic? Where's that? Or should I just FTP it and post the hyperlink?

I'll look forward to hearing your comments and advice.
Click to expand...

You can post it in the mp3 clinic (a little ways down the main page) or in this thread since you have a specific question.

I personally put a lot of emphasis on kick/bass seperation, so I'm interested to hear what you got going on.

Typically, in my experience, the kick drum needs little to no low end enhancement with EQ if it's tuned well. And a low mid scoop of the kick usually tightens it up. People usually go over-boosting the lows on their kicks and it muddies up everything. You can roll those same super-lows off of the bass guitar and get clean seperation - but it just depends. I need to hear what you have before I can give an honest opinion.
 
Being the contrairan voice here...

Perhaps what you are getting is actually what you REALLY want? Drums a bass form the rhythm section of most small combos (there was even, once, a sub-genre called... "Drum and Bass") - if you have lucked into the kick drum and the bass sounding like a single instrument, or at least like they are in perfect sync (which, from your description, it seems they are) hey, man, GO WITH IT. We should all be so lucky.

Frankly, you sound more like a DRUMMER complaining that your stuff is not out front, rather than a band MEMBER willing to add no more and no less than what sounds best to the final mix, or an audio engineer searching for the best mix.
 
The definition of the kick is in the upper midrange, not the low end.

In the Alice in Chains song, the kick is louder than the other instruments, the guitars are panned wide and the bass is up the middle with emphasis on the midrange component of the bass, not the low end.
 
Thanks again for your interest Greg.
I'll be uploading the current bounce tonight and will be very interested to hear your thoughts and advice.
All constructive critism is greatly appreciated and anticipated!!
 
So here it is guys:



I did a fresh bounce today, and it now seems bassier than ever :(

First things first though, any suggestions on the kick?
It's there...somewhere, just too low?
 
Take out a bunch of 400hz and add a bunch of 3k to 5k.

You have more than enough thud, you just don't have any definition. The definition comes from the upper midrange. You need the 'click' to make it sound the way you want.
 
Yeah, I would recommend giving the kick a broad boost between 2k-6k, and suck some low-mids out of it as well. Probably between 200Hz-500Hz. Careful though with these frequencies because you can quickly make the kick sound thin. Also may need to adjust gain slightly after EQing lows out of it as the overall volume may suffer a db or two. If EQing doesn't help enough, you can try the sidechain compressor route, but this also requires extreme caution as combining it with the compressor you are already using on the track may cause really poor results.

Here's another funky trick I found out recently, and haven't had the pleasure of sharing with anyone yet. This is one to try to help the kick's sound instead of eqing the lows out of it. Put a de-esser on the bass that gets its signal sidechained in from the kick. It has to be a de-esser that can cover lower frequency ranges. I would use it around 300Hz. It will give the kick a little pocket of low frequencies to fill in, without negatively effecting the rest of the higher frequency content. You can try the same trick by de-essing the kick, with the sidechain from the bass.
 
Chazfest said:
So here it is guys:



I did a fresh bounce today, and it now seems bassier than ever :(

First things first though, any suggestions on the kick?
It's there...somewhere, just too low?
Click to expand...
Yeah that should be an easy fix. Scoop a bunch out of the kick like mentioned already and trim the fat out of the bass. Next you'll wanna work on that snare.

Also, give the middle some breathing room. You've got everything right up the gut. Pan them guitars to free up space in the mix.
 
Awesome, thanks for all the speedy advice!!
I'm intrigued about the idea of boosting the mid frequencies and applying a scoop to control the lows of the bass and kick!

I'll take all of the points in to consideration and get back to work.
As soon as I've got the mix moving forward again I'd be very interested to hear your comments.
Should I add a new post to this forum with the new bounce when it's ready?
Or should I take it to the MP3 clinic?

Also, I have a proposal for anyone who's up for the challenge:
We (my band) recorded a 'semi-professional' demo with a guy a year ago. Since listening to it though, we realised that one track in particular sounds very empty.
I'm really interested to hear what it would sound like with orchestral strings & synth etc interlaced.:cool:

I've attached a link to the song in question, it's almost entirely instrumental, save a few words half way through:
http://www.lejogrun.co.uk/Pluto_-_Flakes_Of_Cold.m4a

I'm pretty sure I could get hold of the multitrack session files if needed, although it was all done entirely in Pro Tools, so not sure how/if that'd transfer to any other application? If it's do-able, and if anyone is genuinely interested in tearing the song apart, I could post the files on DVD, as uploading/downloading several gigs may take some time :p

Looking forward to any comments.
 
To me it sounds like more of a bass guitar problem then a kick problem.
And I am guessing your bass player is using a 5 string.
 
Interesting.
He's using 4 string, but to be honest, I don't think the signal was ever that great on the bass track.
Time for a retake perhaps?
 
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