My guitar is driving me f**king CRAZY!!

[philbagg]

Hey guys. I'm an idiot when it comes to anything about the design/structure of guitars, especially ones with floating bridges.

I got an Ibanez S670 with an Ibanez ZR bridge over a month ago, as talked about in this thread, and it was fine when I got it.

Now two things are bothering me:
There's some buzzing coming from certain strings on certain frets (mainly the lower strings/frets). I assume it's normal that the strings are closer to the lower frets (1, 2 etc) than the higher ones (18, 19)? It's like the strings gradually get further away from the fretboard the closer they get to the pickups/bridge, by millimetres.

and

The tuning. I can tune the strings perfectly using a tuner, or by ear, and as soon as I fret any chords, it sounds out of tune. Yet, it'll be in tune when played open. The 12th fret harmonics don't match the 12th fret notes, and are a few cents out of each other. It's worse on some strings than others.

Can somebody please tell me what the hell is goin on?

 

[TetraFish]

Yeah, That's intonation at work. Unless you really know what your doing take it for a set up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intonation_(music)

 

[muttley600]

Hey dude haven't seen you round for a while.

Read the sticky at the top of this board and then ask LI_Slim...

Just joking. Sounds like you have a pretty poor setup on it at present. You need to get it set up. It's basically a balancing act between what is possible and what is acceptable.

The neck relief will need setting and the intonation needs to be looked at. All that needs to be done while other things like the bridge and nut are tweaked.

A good guitar tech will have you up and running in no time. If things are really bad you may need a bit of adjustment to the neck body joint but I doubt it. Who ever does it will quote you on what he or she intends to do and how much. Any questions about that side of it just ask.

 

[Dogbreath]

Yup...sounds like intonation.
Some of it could also be the bridge. My son has an Ibanez with the floating bridge (maybe like yours...not sure) and it finally got to the point where we said hell with it, cut a small block of wood and settled it into place under the bridge and let the spring tension hold it in place. Kept the bridge nice n flat with no movement.
Maybe a hillbilly way to do it but it worked fine.
I remember we had to do some whittling on the wood to get the action back where we wanted it. But when he wants a whammy, he just grabs his other guitar.

Peace dOOd

 

[ggunn]

Part of it may be technique. My brother has played 12 string acoustic guitar for 30 years. He just plain cannot play my Les Paul in tune because he is used to squeezing the living crap out of the neck to make chords, and with the jumbo frets on my LP, he pulls every fretted note in a chord sharp.

 

[muttley600]

Part of it may be technique. My brother has played 12 string acoustic guitar for 30 years. He just plain cannot play my Les Paul in tune because he is used to squeezing the living crap out of the neck to make chords, and with the jumbo frets on my LP, he pulls every fretted note in a chord sharp.

Not if it's buzzing on some positions on the neck and the octave fretted is not true to the harmonic. Just saying.

You do need a different touch sometimes with jumbo frets and slinky strings but a good setup will take care of that as well. A good setup is as much about the player as the instrument though I grant you.

 

[moresound]

Don't know for sure unless I was able to take a look at it philbagg but .....
The title to your post would make for a great song!

 

[philbagg]

Thanks for the replies lads.

Yeah, That's intonation at work. Unless you really know what your doing take it for a set up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intonation_(music)

I assumed it was intonation alright. Would that be the cause of the string buzzing too?

Hey dude haven't seen you round for a while.

Read the sticky at the top of this board and then ask LI_Slim...

Just joking. Sounds like you have a pretty poor setup on it at present. You need to get it set up. It's basically a balancing act between what is possible and what is acceptable.

The neck relief will need setting and the intonation needs to be looked at. All that needs to be done while other things like the bridge and nut are tweaked.

A good guitar tech will have you up and running in no time. If things are really bad you may need a bit of adjustment to the neck body joint but I doubt it. Who ever does it will quote you on what he or she intends to do and how much. Any questions about that side of it just ask.

Hey Mutt, good to talk tya again.

Yeah I wouldn't say I'd have a great idea of what I'm doing when it comes to this stuff, maybe there's a way I could learn? I'll bring it to a tech this time, but I don't want to have to do it whenever I have a problem with a guitar.

Thanks for the tips.

Yup...sounds like intonation.
Some of it could also be the bridge. My son has an Ibanez with the floating bridge (maybe like yours...not sure) and it finally got to the point where we said hell with it, cut a small block of wood and settled it into place under the bridge and let the spring tension hold it in place. Kept the bridge nice n flat with no movement.
Maybe a hillbilly way to do it but it worked fine.
I remember we had to do some whittling on the wood to get the action back where we wanted it. But when he wants a whammy, he just grabs his other guitar.

Peace dOOd

God damn hillbillies.......

How-do Doog-d00d

Part of it may be technique. My brother has played 12 string acoustic guitar for 30 years. He just plain cannot play my Les Paul in tune because he is used to squeezing the living crap out of the neck to make chords, and with the jumbo frets on my LP, he pulls every fretted note in a chord sharp.

I've got a light touch, but I'd need to apply a LOT of pressure to get these kind of tuning abnormalities on a correctly set-up guitar.

 

[muttley600]

I assumed it was intonation alright. Would that be the cause of the string buzzing too?.

No. Separate things entirely. You can do this shit yourself but it can be a steep learning curve if you start out with something that has a bunch of similar but unrelated issues.

Take it to a tech or decent luthier who will talk you through the what and why. Then when you need to tinker you'll have a better grounding and you can ask here for the detail.

The buzzing alone could be down to a few things, neck relief, high frets badly adjusted action, all those need to be looked at in isolation and then acted on as one to get it right.

The intonation is easier but with a spring block bridge it adds a bunch of other complications. Take it to a good shop and buy the guy a few beers or a bottle of wine and he'll talk you through a lot of it.

 

[FoulPhil]

Call your local music stores. Just do a search on google and it'll give you a list with addresses and phone numbers included.

Even if you have to call a few you'll eventually find one that can refer you to a guitar tech or luthier who does set ups. Give the guy a call and set up a time to drop your guitar off. Sometimes they'll do it right then and there and sometimes they'll have to keep it for a few days.

Take a new set of your favorite strings because things can change when you switch gauges. I do my own set ups, but it took me many years of trying for it to be passable. Floyd Rose are tricky to set up the intonation. You can just turn the hex screw with a hex and the whole piece the string locks into will slide forward if there is any tension in the strings. It isn't very convenient for setting up the intonation

Eventually you'll be able to do it yourself or you can keep paying someone to do it. Either way is good.

 

[ido1957]

I have a good shop I take mine to - invaluable... I've had fret jobs on one guitar and intonation set on all of them and it really feels good to play without worrying about tuning and playability. Only need to take them in every few years and at 50-100 a pop it's well worth it.

 

[ggunn]

Not if it's buzzing on some positions on the neck and the octave fretted is not true to the harmonic. Just saying.

You do need a different touch sometimes with jumbo frets and slinky strings but a good setup will take care of that as well. A good setup is as much about the player as the instrument though I grant you.

Not the case with my brother. I had the guitar set up and it plays really well - for me. When I play a first position D chord it sounds fine, but when my brother does - not so much. I can play the D normally and it sounds fine, but when I squeeze the hell out of it it sounds, well, just like my brother is playing it.

He got an Epiphone Dot with lower frets, problem solved.

 

[TetraFish]

Just another point about floaters, make sure you get it set up with the gauge of string (maybe even the same brand) you plan on using and stick with those. With a floater changing the string gauge changes the tension on the strings which of course requires changing the springs in the back. If you don't do that just exactly right all of the strings will be a little shorter or a little longer which totally screws the intonation.

Did you just changes the strings and it's all of a sudden screwed?

 

[TetraFish]

I have a good shop I take mine to - invaluable... I've had fret jobs on one guitar and intonation set on all of them and it really feels good to play without worrying about tuning and playability. Only need to take them in every few years and at 50-100 a pop it's well worth it.

Where do you go? I had a good guy in millwoods but the store closed and I don't know where he ended up.

 

[philbagg]

Thanks for the replies guys. Gonna look into it.

Did you just changes the strings and it's all of a sudden screwed?

I changed the strings when I got her, and it played fine. Since then, I've changed tunings (between D-standard, Eb-standard, and E-standard) and adjusted the spring tension using the spring tension wheel at the back (it's my understanding that you should be able to do this with no problems, am I correct?). I've broken a high-E, and replaced it with the same gauge string. The hole (kind of like a metal/plastic tube) that the whammy bar sits in has also broken which I need to fix/get fixed, but that shouldn't really be affecting the intonation/action problems I'm having.

Jesus, floating bridges are a pain in the arse. I better incorporate divebombs every 5 seconds into my music to make up for this crap

 

[ggunn]

Jesus, floating bridges are a pain in the arse. I better incorporate divebombs every 5 seconds into my music to make up for this crap

A very important thing to consider on a floating bridge guitar is what is happening in the headstock. As you exercise the bar, unless you have a locking nut, the strings slide back and forth through the slots in the nut and under the string trees (if you have them). Friction between the string and the nut and trees retains tension, which can result in the strings being sharp after a trem bar movement until it equalizes. Generally, (in my experience) an unwound G string is the worst offender, but it affects them all.

Having nut slots too narrow for the gauge strings you are using makes this a lot worse. Conversely (perhaps perversely), smaller gauge strings are worse than larger ones. Metal string trees are bad, and a brass (non-locking) nut is right out. A plastic nut will give you trouble, too.

This is why pedal steel guitars have roller nuts, BTW.

There are three possible approaches to the problem. One, you can install a locking nut to keep the strings from sliding at all, or two, you can let them slide and reduce the friction as much as you can, or three, you can constrain the movement of the bridge.

I have a very old Strat with a floating bridge, so drilling into the neck to install a locking (or roller) bridge is out of the question. I have a bone nut (low friction), plus whenever I change strings I mix up a slurry of Teflon grease and graphite and put a dab of it down in every string slot. I have also replaced the metal string trees with graphite ones. It's not perfect, but it works pretty well.

Another strategy you can use is to make your bridge "semi" floating. A true floating bridge will bend the pitch either way, depending on whether you push or pull the bar. With a Strat, you can load up the trem block with springs and tighten down the claw so that the block is held tightly against the inside of the cavity. This will result in the bar being able to only lower the pitch of the strings, but it will return more strongly to the "rest" position and staying in tune will be less of a problem. It will also make the trem bar a lot harder to move, for what that's worth.

But yes, a guitar with a floating bridge requires a lot more attention than a hardtail design. Deal with it.

 

[TetraFish]

Thanks for the replies guys. Gonna look into it.



I changed the strings when I got her, and it played fine. Since then, I've changed tunings (between D-standard, Eb-standard, and E-standard) and adjusted the spring tension using the spring tension wheel at the back (it's my understanding that you should be able to do this with no problems, am I correct?). I've broken a high-E, and replaced it with the same gauge string. The hole (kind of like a metal/plastic tube) that the whammy bar sits in has also broken which I need to fix/get fixed, but that shouldn't really be affecting the intonation/action problems I'm having.

Jesus, floating bridges are a pain in the arse. I better incorporate divebombs every 5 seconds into my music to make up for this crap

Maybe try just minute adjustments to the springs and see if you can get the 12th fret harmonics back in line. If it played fine before it shouldn't magically just go out of whack.

Just think though, once you've got all this fiqured out you'll be the go to guy on floaters.

 

[ggunn]

Maybe try just minute adjustments to the springs and see if you can get the 12th fret harmonics back in line. If it played fine before it shouldn't magically just go out of whack.

Just think though, once you've got all this fiqured out you'll be the go to guy on floaters.

First you set the rest point of the bridge/tremelo block where you want it by adjusting the springs/claw assembly. Then you set the intonation by adjusting the position of the bridge saddles. Whenever you change string gauge, you have to do it again, in the same order.

 

[TetraFish]

First you set the rest point of the bridge/tremelo block where you want it by adjusting the springs/claw assembly. Then you set the intonation by adjusting the position of the bridge saddles. Whenever you change string gauge, you have to do it again, in the same order.

But he says that he changed strings and it played great and then he did some alternate tunings and now it's out. The only thing he really changed was the spring tension. If he didn't get that exactly right it could be the problem which may get solved by some fine tuning on the springs.

 

[ggunn]

But he says that he changed strings and it played great and then he did some alternate tunings and now it's out. The only thing he really changed was the spring tension. If he didn't get that exactly right it could be the problem which may get solved by some fine tuning on the springs.

When you change tunings, you change the intonation, irrespective of the spring tension. If he didn't move the springs when he changed the tuning, then when he puts the tuning back the springs will be right. If he wants to stay with the alternative tuning, he should adjust the intonation at the saddles once he sets the bridge position where he wants it.