Multiple mics setup for acoustic guitar

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dainbramage

dainbramage

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Tommy Emmanuels album "Only" has by far the best acoustic guitar sound that has ever reached my brain. As you can see in this video, he uses multiple mics and he compresses pre-mix. Now most people advice against this because of phase issues and especially against the compression part.



Others say that phase issues really are not much of a problem when the sound source is so close, and that the only time to really worry about it is in terms of drum micing. However I was thinking maybe they have equipment with some sort of adjustable phase (not just a flip). What do you guys think?
 
Effective, specially with the piezo and internal mic on the guitar, if you can't mix to a great sound with all those choices ...
 
Breaking the 3:1 rule is that what you mean?
They're not phase issues if it doesn't make it sound wrong.
Unless it's a point source it is generating some time arrival differences- even for one mic.
But looks to me he's also got them pretty much the same depth away from the source.
So maybe 'the rule' ought to be just stay aware of cause and effects in play and use them to understand where you might be getting into trouble- and why.
 
True if he were any further back from the microphones then the 3to1 rule would step right in.
 
I was indeed thinking about the 3:1 rule. Well that makes me feel better about using my recently obtained z3300a with my old se2200a, sounds pretty sweet with one at 12th and the z3300a in figure-8 on the other side of the hole. But what about compression? Is it still not a good idea, i mean Tommy does it.

I admit it, I like the thought of using my hardware compressor and at the moment I'm back to the old h4n recorder as I had to sell the interface for traveling money! The converters aren't all that bad.
 
Compression in isn't bad at all - just gotta know what your doing and know what you want in the end.
 
moresound said:
True if he were any further back from the microphones then the 3to1 rule would step right in.
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Back to the basics. What does 3:1 do- When and why (or why not :D :p

Attenuate unwanted bleed that is causing destructive frequency interference.
A spaced pair about equally out in front of a pair of singers as they are apart, is trouble.
Move the mics back far enough and they could start to look and act like AB stereo or ORTF or what ever. Phase effects' but part of the imaging'.

Guess part of the question is is a single guitar generating the same basic sounds (from roughly the same time span) not quite the same as two voices where each mic can see a delayed mix (about greater than -9db or what ever the number is) of both voices.

If anything I would think moving a pair back might make the horizontal arrival differences less proportionally? (maybe, eh :o
 
H-m-m-m-m Yes.

Which brings me to a question I've had in my mind.
What about the vertical plane? That is if one were to record like that.
 
There was this one thing I ran across mics placed high and low' and panned for a 'stage image. Hmm. Been a while, and IIRC it seemed to makes sense at the time but don't recall the details.
 
I've come to the conclusion where acoustic guitar recording is concerned that you do whatever you have to to get the sound you want.
I say this as an amateur, but to me, acoustic guitar always sounds like........acoustic guitar. Unless it is overdriven or amped and effected. Regardless of where the mics were placed, how many were used or if the vocal and acoustic were recorded at the same time.
Obviously there are certain variables that come into play such as the kind of space you're in and stuff like that. But the acoustic guitar has always sounded to me like an acoustic guitar. Whether recorded in the USA, USSR or UK, in the 60s, 70s or 80s etc, played by Joni Mitchell, Joan Armatrading, John Fean or John Martyn . The key has always really been the way the player plays. That seems to me to be the determining factor in the sound.
 
grimtraveller said:
the acoustic guitar has always sounded to me like an acoustic guitar.
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I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying it doesn't matter to you what it really sounds like in terms of stereo width etc or am I getting it wrong? Like mr. Emmanuel says in the video, different frequencies are to be found in different areas of the guitar. Now it may not be very important to catch them all if the acoustic guitar is in between other stuff in a mix, but for solo fingerpicking guitar I find it much more pleasing to the ear when there is a perceived depth and stereo image.
 
dainbramage said:
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying it doesn't matter to you what it really sounds like in terms of stereo width etc or am I getting it wrong?


but for solo fingerpicking guitar I find it much more pleasing to the ear when there is a perceived depth and stereo image.
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What I'm saying is that however it has been recorded, an acoustic guitar to me always sounds like an acoustic guitar. I have never sat there listening to the acoustic guitar and wished it was recorded some other way or lamented at the way it was recorded. Now, I realize that that probably says more about me and my ears and I freely admit that in terms of things like "perceived depth and stereo image", I've probably got cloth ears. I can't tell if something has depth or not {stereo image is an easy one}. If I hear acoustic guitar, it just sounds like acoustic guitar ! I've no idea what the standard "good" acoustic guitar is meant to sound like, or for that matter badly recorded acoustic guitar. I have a large cross section of music that features acoustic guitar and I've seen pictures in which the guitars are miked in all kinds of different ways and read tons of interviews in which engineers or artists have described the ways their guitars were miked and to me they all just sound like acoustic guitars !
 
dainbramage said:
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying it doesn't matter to you what it really sounds like in terms of stereo width etc or am I getting it wrong? Like mr. Emmanuel says in the video, different frequencies are to be found in different areas of the guitar. Now it may not be very important to catch them all if the acoustic guitar is in between other stuff in a mix, but for solo fingerpicking guitar I find it much more pleasing to the ear when there is a perceived depth and stereo image.
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Yeah, for the context of your thread, the "where acoustic guitar recording is concerned that you do whatever you have to to get the sound you want" was mostly what I got from his post :D
 
mixsit said:
Yeah, for the context of your thread, the "where acoustic guitar recording is concerned that you do whatever you have to to get the sound you want" was mostly what I got from his post :D
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Mixsit's got it in one. I'm not saying every acoustic guitar recording sounds the same or even that it doesn't matter how you record it or how it sounds. Rather, no matter how it's done, it always sounds like what it's supposed to be so whatever sound you want, take the steps necessary to get it.
When I've been unhappy with the acoustic guitar sound I've recorded, it has always been because of the way I've played the guitar, stiffly, not strong fretting or clumsy picking, etc.
 
I'd guess getting what you want off AC guit is aboot ten times harder than say a voc. (quite a bit trickier than elect' for example
 
grimtraveller said:
When I've been unhappy with the acoustic guitar sound I've recorded, it has always been because of the way I've played the guitar, stiffly, not strong fretting or clumsy picking, etc.
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I see your point. The sound of an acoustic guitar to me depends heavily on the style. The sound of old delta blues (Robert Johnson, Son House etc) would not sound as good, I guess "vintage", as they do if it wasn't for the horrible quality recordings. Same goes with some of the 4-tracked Nick Drake tapes which sound amazing. The kind of music I am into these weeks however, fingerpicking in the style of Chet Atkins, I believe need some depth and clarity. I also think Chet Atkins would sound better recorded in a different manner than what was usual for his earlier albums. Same goes with Townes Van Zandt, a great picker who was horribly recorded and produced.
 
I record all my acoustic guitar tracks with two mics in stereo. Well not ALL but just about all. It sounds much better, there is a sense of depth and location on the instrument. The acoustic guitar is a great instrument with lots of texture and it sounds great in stereo.
 
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