Multi effects processor advice for tube amp

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metalj

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Hi gang, i think i may have crossed over to the darkside and bought a all tube amp. :) It is the nicest sounding amp to my ears ive ever heard. Its a hughs and kettner eddition 20 1x12 anniversary combo. Its only a 2 channel (clean/gain) 20 watts, but it is really frk'n loud. as loud as my 1/2 stack solid state.

my quest is now for a great effects processor to go through the effects loop. I dont want any modleing. i only need channel switching for a few things, delay, chorus, verb, flange, and the biggest thing i need is Eq that will boost my volume and color for solos. My current effects pedal just is too noisy with this amp, and for some reason the amps effects loop is cliping the input of my multi effects pedal only on the clean channel and is ruining the beautiful sound. i have tried turning down the input on the pedal all the way, but stiill clips

The effects loop send also is a line out i guess. something the company calls the "red box" DI for recoding and such.

I can clean up the clipping by turning down the volume of the clean channel on the amp, but then i loose the ability to crank my volume knob to get a nice drive on the clean channel and rolling it back for clean. I know this amp is probably only for recording,but it sounds so awsome that i must use it for live applications as well.

any advice?? does a tube amp require something abnormal to fit with it. THis is my frirst experience with it.

thanks
 
Boss GT6

I recently purchased a Boss GT6 used in a local music store. On top of it's great recording capabilities, this processor actually sounds good live and is very easy to use. If you take the time to EQ your guitar so any straight uneffected output sounds just like a straight signal from our guitar, you'll have a great starting point for building your sounds and you'll have a good strong sound when you use your overdrive channel on your amp.

Check out the Boss website to learn more. I'm not swearing it's THE best, but it sure does offer a lot.

http://www.bossus.com/index.asp?pg=1&tmp=85
 
i've wrestled with this problem myself

I own a Hot Rod Deville 212 and I also love the clean tube sound of my amp. When I was initially searching for the best wasy to process my sound with some effects and and some eq and all that, I shopped around for some processors. At the time it came down to the Digitech GNX3 and the Boss GT5. I opted for the GNX3 because it had the built in digital 8 track recorder. After fooling around with this thing for some time, I began to find the limitations in a floor processor. The biggest flaw with this item is that it does not have a true bypass. What ends up happening is that you get a much lower level sound when you try to bypass the unit by pressing its bypass buttons (much lower than any of the presets). If you try to compensate for this by lowering the preset levels and raising the output volume of the unit, you start to get a lot of noise. Right off the bat, I'd say stay away from anything that doesn't have true bypass. Otherwise you wont be able to enjoy that nice tube sound of your amp as well.

I just spoke to a guy at Digitech today about this, and it seems the best solution is what I had already figured out. That is to use an A/B box and some Y cables to bypass the unit altogether. With that in mind I would say that the GNX3 can do almost everything you'd ever need. I don't know if the Boss GT6 or the Digitech GNX4 have true bypass. If they do, then it will probably solve your needs, but the story doesn't end there.

Instead of buying this A/B box I opted for what I think most guitarists eventually opt for: individual pedals. This is by far the best option if you only want a couple of effects, because you can get exactly what you want. Now don't get me wrong, I have done "A/B" comparisons on some effects like my EHX Big Muff pi to the effect built in to the GNX3 and it is really almost identical. As far as distortions are concerned you are definitely covered. I know you don't want amp modeling, but if you did this machine would definitely do a decent job of that as well, but it's just not the same.

For example, I have gone out and bought a Line 6 DL4 delay, and it is much better than anything the GNX can do, same thing with the flanger (Electric Mistress), compressor, etc. etc. With pedals you usually get a more distinctive sound. If you are trying to recreate a certain sound for a song you will be able to do it better with pedals, because, chances are, the original artist used individual pedals (though sometimes finding the right pedal from the right era for that certain song is a whole other story). You also have the ability to better tweak the effect, and can do it more easily just by reaching down and turing some knobs on each individual unit.

The floor processors are a cheaper way to get all the effects you need, but they won't be the best. I have found from my limited experience that some effects will be almost as good (some practically identical) but some don't even compare. If you want a lot of effects, your cheapest and most practical option is to get a good fx processor. If you want just a few fx, or the best quality, then you should just get the pedals. Keep in mind though, that this will be much more money. You could get a GNX3 for like 300 bucks, while it could easly cost 10 times that much to be able to do all that it can do with just pedals. You could spend hundreds just on cables to link everything together, not to mention pedalboards, power supplies, etc (all the things people might not necessarily think about when they are gettting ready to build a rig). And then there's carrying all this stuff around with you. Nonetheless, you will probably never NEED all that the processors can do, and it will not be the BEST (highest quality) way to get it done. To make a rough comparisson its kind of like buying a top of the line bookshelf stereo with all sorts of doodads, versus buying indivual components to build a Hi-Fi stereo system. Ask yourself how serious you are about how you're going to use the stuff (or how badly you want it), and what you're willing to do to get it.

Hope this helps.
 
I just spoke to a guy at Digitech today about this, and it seems the best solution is what I had already figured out. That is to use an A/B box and some Y cables to bypass the unit altogether. With that in mind I would say that the GNX3 can do almost everything you'd ever need. I don't know if the Boss GT6 or the Digitech GNX4 have true bypass. If they do, then it will probably solve your needs, but the story doesn't end there.



are you talking about A/b ing two amps ?? one with effects and one without ? im not quite sure what you mean.

thanks if you have time to reply. I just dont understand why the clean channell clips my effects pedals input even with the volume of the input turned down. and like i said befoe. I dont have any problems with the distortion channel, and if i turn the actual volume on the amp down on the clean channel then it will work fine for just a clean channel, but i loose out on driving the clean channel into a nice mild distortion.

thanks to anyone who has time to help
 
two things

first: I have used the gnx3 with the effects loop of my tube amp and it works fine. I don't have that problem. might be something weird about the fx loop of that amp but you'd have to ask someone with experience. I don't know what kind of pedal you have, but lets assume its a GNX3 type of processor. it might also just be the same problem i'm having where you are clipping with the clean signal becuase you are turning up the volume of the amp so that you can get a nice loud sound when you use the bypass of the gnx3 (as the gnx3 generally will have very little gain in the bypass function just as I described above). might wanna look into that.

second: The A/B option i mentioned could work like this (i can think of 3 options). I've not tried any of these so I can't vouch for any issues that might arrise (impedance and whatnot).

1 - You can plug a Y cable into your guitar and plug one end into the GNX3 and another end into side A of the A/B box. Then plug the output of the GNX3 into side B of the A/B box. The single jack gets plugged into your amp. Pressing the A/B switch selects which input the box feeds to the amp.

If for some reason, that doesn't work (i've never tried it), then I imagine you could try 2 other things

2 - If you have an amp with 2 inputs such as the Fender deville: You could plug your guitar into the single side of the A/B box. You could then plug one input of the amp directly into side A of the A/B box. Side B of the A/B box goes to the input of the GNX, with the output of the GNX going to input 2 of your amp. Selecting A or B selects whch signal path the guitar is fed into.

3 - If option two adds noise and cuts the gain of you amp, or if you just have a single input amp: This involves using 2 A/B switches (or if a box exists that acts like a dual A/B switch then that would be even better). You set everything up as you would in option 2 except you then run the clean output from side A of box 1 into side A of box 2. The GNX3 then gets plugged into side B of box 2. The single side of box 2 goes into the amp. You would then select side A on both boxes for clean sound or side B on both for the GNX3 sound, while truly bypassing either one.

I made diagrams to explain how this one could work.

Consequently if anyone tries or has tried something like this, let us know how it turned out. I'd be especially interested to know if option 1 works well so that I can use it myself.
 

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It's pretty easy to wire up a DPDT switch into a true bypass. Mount it in a small (preferably all metal) project box from Radio Shack; you may have to buy the switch on line.

Mount 4 1/4" jacks in the box, and wire one pair of them to the center poles of the switch. One will be the input from your guitar, the other will be the output to the amp.

Bridge one pair of the other poles of the switch together. That's your bypass.

Wire the remaining two poles to the other two jacks, That's your in/out to the FX unit. The pole that's on the same side of the switch as your guitar is the output (of the box) to the FX, the other is the input from the FX.

If you use an all metal box, you only have to solder up the "hot" pins, and if you wire up a pair of very large (> 1 Megohm) resistors from the two center poles of the switch to the shield (ground lugs of any of the jacks) it won't thump when you switch it.

Simple, huh?
 
I know you dont want modeling...but maybe a POD liveXT...has loads of nice effects and you can just bypass the amp models....also has EQ....go try it in the store...very easy unit to use....also great for recording.
 
I own a crap load of effect boxes. I love the sound of my 65 Fender Twin (original no re-issue) I did do an effects loop modification on it.

I don't care for the amp mods either on many of these amp modeling multi-effects boxes. I like the way my Fender sounds. I agree with betaphase that the Gnx3's bypass sucks. In fact all of the factory presets are at different levels. I had to use a DB meter to adjust the amps levels so each patch would be at the same volume.
I have to use a A/B when I use the Gnx3. for just the effects portion of that box. All of my presets are set to Direct Amp which has no amp modeling.

I also own a Vox Tonelab. You just simply turn the amp model switch to off.
It has a true bypass, no signal loss. I think the Tonelab's effects are better then the Gnx's.

In conclusion, I really feel a pedal board with separate effects boxes is the way to go. That's if you have the money. These multi-effects boxes are O.K., but they really don't compare to the sound you get out of a good single effects box.

I travel to many gigs and play with many different musicians. I bring my ToneLab and have my Twin Reverb shipped in it's ATA case. Most of the musicians I've played with use a pedal board. It closes up into it's own ATA case for shipping. That's probably the route I am going to go when I can save up enough bucks.
Just my 2cents.
 
Thanks for all your help gang. keep it coming if anyone else has a opinion.

i will check out the tone lab, and the boss.

the main thing though is that effects loop from the amp clipping my current multieffects pedal. its a older digital Ibanez PT5 that has alway worked for me, and has never caused any problem with any solid state amp.

I will take it to the local store and run some different effect pedals through it to see if it is indeed just a characteristic of that amp, or if it is my pedal.

that send on the amp also being a "red box" DI makes me wonder if it is just to hot a signal or something.
 
metalj said:
Thanks for all your help gang. keep it coming if anyone else has a opinion.

i will check out the tone lab, and the boss.

the main thing though is that effects loop from the amp clipping my current multieffects pedal. its a older digital Ibanez PT5 that has alway worked for me, and has never caused any problem with any solid state amp.

I will take it to the local store and run some different effect pedals through it to see if it is indeed just a characteristic of that amp, or if it is my pedal.

that send on the amp also being a "red box" DI makes me wonder if it is just to hot a signal or something.
Click to expand...

I was in the same boat a while back and after months of trying several pedals, multieffects units, etc., I finally ended up with a TC Electonic G-Major and G-Minor foot controller. It was the only unit that didn't muck up my "sound" when placed in the effects loop of my DSL100. I have three settings for it: 1. Normal loudness, 2. louder (no effects), and 3. Delay with a bit of compression for solos.

I have gigged with it for the last 6 months without a hiccup, and I receive nothing but praise from other guitarists for the tone that I get.

-mr moon
 
yeah those g major units look pretty slick

kind of an expensive solution though when you get the footpedal and all. for that I might just get a few pedals if you don't mind luggin it around. or even better; id get both
 
betaphase said:
kind of an expensive solution though when you get the footpedal and all. for that I might just get a few pedals if you don't mind luggin it around. or even better; id get both
Click to expand...

Yeah, kinda expensive ...BUT, all the multi-effects units and such that I tried sucked the tone out of my amp, even when they were not in use (but still in either the effects loop or in the signal path into the amp's input), and those were even a couple of hundred bucks up to $500 for the high-end Boss stuff. So I figured, if I'm going to pay 500 bucks for something that will just get me by (but still not give me the sound that I'm after), why not save up a few more bucks over a couple of months and get what I KNOW will do the job right without having to be replaced a year or so later?!!

Since I purchased the G-Major & G-Minor about a year or so ago, I have not had any buyer's remorse whatsoever. The G-Major has every effect and option I will ever need for live use (except for the wah pedal which is the only in-line effect I ever use), and has so many options that I haven't even messed around with yet. I NEVER listen to recordings of our shows and think "gee, I wish my guitar sound was a bit more ____" because it is right there where I want it. ;)

-mr moon
 
yeah i agree with mr moon. Plus i did some checking and it looks like the price of those gmajors have dropped by like 60% since they came out with a newer updated one.

so for $400 i could get a gforce, and a pedal for another $200 ?? Im guessing. which would put me very close to the boss or line6 price.

still not sure, but i will check it out. t

thanks for the conversation and your help

anyone with a opinion i would love to hear it.
 
metalj said:
yeah i agree with mr moon. Plus i did some checking and it looks like the price of those gmajors have dropped by like 60% since they came out with a newer updated one.

so for $400 i could get a gforce, and a pedal for another $200 ?? Im guessing. which would put me very close to the boss or line6 price.

still not sure, but i will check it out. t

thanks for the conversation and your help

anyone with a opinion i would love to hear it.
Click to expand...

One last point I'd make is that I was looking for an effects unit that did not have amp modelling, because I loved my amp's sound. I was not looking to change my overall amp sound, just to add a volume pedal for soloing and delay for other solos and such. ;)

It's amazing how many of those multieffects units really sucked the tone out of my amp when I took them home to try them out ...even a few that sounded really sweet in the guitar shop sounded like pure @ss once I got them home and tweaked them around for a few days. :eek:

-mr moon
 
Mr. Moon said:
One last point I'd make is that I was looking for an effects unit that did not have amp modelling, because I loved my amp's sound. I was not looking to change my overall amp sound, just to add a volume pedal for soloing and delay for other solos and such. ;)

It's amazing how many of those multieffects units really sucked the tone out of my amp when I took them home to try them out ...even a few that sounded really sweet in the guitar shop sounded like pure @ss once I got them home and tweaked them around for a few days. :eek:

-mr moon
Click to expand...

Sounds like we have similar tastes as far as a set up goes. I too only want the sound of my tube amp to shine and sparkle, then add a couple effects here and there for certain songs and the ability to boost the volume for a solo with or without the effects depending on the song.

the only thing im a little worried about is the pedal board for that gmajor. it looks like it is just a toggle pedal, with no presets. I guess i could get a midi board, but those are kinda hit and miss as far as quality goes.
 
metalj said:
Sounds like we have similar tastes as far as a set up goes. I too only want the sound of my tube amp to shine and sparkle, then add a couple effects here and there for certain songs and the ability to boost the volume for a solo with or without the effects depending on the song.

the only thing im a little worried about is the pedal board for that gmajor. it looks like it is just a toggle pedal, with no presets. I guess i could get a midi board, but those are kinda hit and miss as far as quality goes.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the g-minor allows you to go up and down banks of presets that you have created (right switch) or factory presets (left side). However, it does have the upper switch which allows you to set tempos for the effects and go into "tune" mode where it mutes the signal so you can tune quietly. For me, this limited number of switches works out because I have only three presets that I use, so bouncing between them using one switch is no big deal. I can see where it would be a mess if you had a bunch of presets you had to go back and forth between in one tune. Another nice thing about the g-minor is that it has full-time tune indicators which are handy if you need to tune up a string during a song, like after a ripping solo or something, or if you're doing some single-string tuning changes during a song. You can even set up the G-Major to switch channels (clean to overdrive, etc) on your amp as part of a user setting if you'd like. I haven't tried this feature, but it may be handy down the road as I get older and more artsy... :D

The G-Major is the ONLY effect unit (rack or otherwise) in the sub-$1,000 (us) price range that did not suck the tone out of my rig when placed in my effects loop. Everything else I tried (DigiShit, ToneShit, Roland/Boss, YamahaHaHa MagicShit, etc.) at home on my rig (Marshall JCM2000 DSL100 into a 4x12 Mesa Recto cab), negatively impacted my sound, especially at high volume.

The question I kept asking myself: Why pay money for things which don't work ...and would just end up pissing me off in time? :confused:

-mr moon

EDIT: spelling
 
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True Sound

I learned a looooong time ago that I really have no faith whatsoever in the term "true bypass". My GT6 did alter some of my sound straight through no effects activated, and I could notice somewhat. I simply A/B'd my straight sound into my amp versus the sound through the GT6 and messed with the EQ until I had it sounding like it should straight. The outcome was worth it, and while it may not be the "true" straight sound, I can accept what I've ended up with. My rig is pretty simple. I use an '80 Ibanez AS100 and a tech21nyc Trademark 60 1 x 12' 60 watt combo. I work regularly with this rig, and really enjoy my clean sound (Overdrive is iffy-I'll be moving to another amp before summer's end-I'll keep y'all posted). Once I got my straight sound EQ'd properly, I copied that patch maybe 12 times over and started adding effects. My chorus sounds full, the compressor is set the way I used to use my MXR, and believe it or not the wah isn't bad (live) for a digital wah sound.

I'm not overly obsessive about my tone because I really spend 90% of my gigs as a supporting instrument with maybe 10 solos throughout the entire night (3 one-hour long sets), but I do like it to sound good, and full, and I want the option of using my guitar volume and tone knobs to alter my sound when necessary.

Try EQing your sound completely effects-free to get your guitar's tonal characteristics back to where you like them. After you've done that, try adding the necessary effects. I believe you'll be much happier with the end result.

-jimbo
 
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